Heroes Behind The Badge: Capitol Police Chief Steve Sund Story - Part 1

Dennis Collins: 00:00:08

Welcome, to Heroes Behind the Badge, we tell real stories about real cops, we

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expose the fake news about police, and we give you the real truth.

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This podcast is brought to you by Citizens Behind the Badge, the leading voice of the American

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people in support of the men and women in law enforcement, dedicated

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to ending the disastrous movement to defund and defame the police.

Dennis Collins: 00:00:37

So for those of you who may be hearing about Citizens Behind the Badge for

Dennis Collins: 00:00:40

the very first time, let me explain a little bit about who we are.

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Citizens Behind the Badge was formed as a 501(c)4 advocacy organization in 2020.

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We are approved by the IRS.

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We serve as the leading voice of the American people in support of the men and women in law enforcement.

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Our mission, to end the disastrous movement to defund and defame the police and ensure that our officers

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receive support and respect that they need and deserve to keep America safe.

Dennis Collins: 00:01:15

My name is Dennis Collins.

Dennis Collins: 00:01:17

I'm a founding board member of Citizens Behind the Badge.

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And let me introduce our Citizens Behind the Badge team.

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First of all, let me introduce Bill Erfurth.

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Bill is a founding board member of Citizens Behind the Badge.

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He is a retired Miami-Dade police lieutenant with 26 years of experience.

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One of Bill's most interesting and notable assignments was the commander of the tactical narcotics team.

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Under his leadership, that became the most productive team in Miami-Dade police history.

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And was nationally recognized.

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His very final assignment of his career was also as a commander of the multi agency violent crime task force

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for almost 10 years, Bill hosted, along with three of his active duty police colleagues, a radio show

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produced and hosted a radio show called cop net, the police radio

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network, which became nationally syndicated in over a hundred markets.

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He is the executive producer of two documentaries, Heroes Behind

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the Badge, Heroes Behind the Badge, Sacrifice and Survival.

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He also was the technical advisor to Jerry Bruckheimer

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and Michael Bay for Bad Boys 2, and even appeared in the movie.

Dennis Collins: 00:02:36

Yes, he did, for sure.

Dennis Collins: 00:02:38

Hello, Mr.

Dennis Collins: 00:02:39

Bill Erfurth.

Bill Erfurth: 00:02:41

Thank you, Dennis.

Bill Erfurth: 00:02:42

I'm hiring you as my agent.

Dennis Collins: 00:02:45

You can't afford me, but that's okay.

Dennis Collins: 00:02:47

Alright.

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Okay, alongside Bill, On our podcast will be the founder and president of Citizens Behind the Badge.

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Craig Floyd.

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Now, many of you already know Craig Floyd.

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He is one of law enforcement's strongest advocates.

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He's the founding CEO emeritus of the national law enforcement officer memorial fund under his

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leadership, the National Law Enforcement Memorial in Washington, D.

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C.

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was built.

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Craig also spearheaded the drive to see one of his dreams come true.

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The dream of a National Law Enforcement Museum became a reality thanks to Craig.

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No one has worked longer or harder than Craig Floyd to support law enforcement and to help change

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America's attitude about the profession and honoring and saving lives.

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Craig Floyd, thank you for your leadership.

Dennis Collins: 00:03:48

Welcome to the team.

Craig Floyd: 00:03:51

Couldn't be prouder to have spent 34 years leading the

Craig Floyd: 00:03:55

memorial fund and now, uh, five years, uh, into Citizens Behind the Badge.

Craig Floyd: 00:04:00

It's a great honor to tell the stories of these, uh, amazing men and women who

Craig Floyd: 00:04:04

go out every day, risking their life for our safety and for our protection.

Craig Floyd: 00:04:08

And it's a Pleasure to be here on the podcast with all of you and our special guests today.

Dennis Collins: 00:04:15

We have, uh, before we get to our special guests and you guys are going to love.

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Our special guest before we get to that, though, we, Bill and Craig would like to introduce the podcast

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with kind of a roll call with kind of some of the latest and greatest of what's going on in law enforcement.

Dennis Collins: 00:04:33

So, uh, Craig, I'll throw it back to you to start off today's roll call.

Craig Floyd: 00:04:38

Yeah, and Bill, I wanted you to be aware of something.

Craig Floyd: 00:04:41

I think you've seen it, but recently, the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund, my old organization,

Craig Floyd: 00:04:48

put out their annual fatality report, uh, how many officers died in the line of duty in 2024.

Craig Floyd: 00:04:56

It's based on preliminary data, but the numbers are pretty, uh, pretty solid.

Craig Floyd: 00:05:00

Uh, it said, unfortunately, 147 law enforcement officers across this country died in the line of

Craig Floyd: 00:05:07

duty last year, and sadly, that was a 25 percent increase over the number of officers who died in 2023.

Craig Floyd: 00:05:17

I was very saddened to see that report.

Craig Floyd: 00:05:18

I thought the numbers were moving in the right direction, but, uh, but again, this job is so dangerous.

Craig Floyd: 00:05:24

We lost 52 officers last year by gunfire.

Craig Floyd: 00:05:27

That was the number one cause of death.

Craig Floyd: 00:05:30

46 officers died in traffic related incidents, often the

Craig Floyd: 00:05:34

most, uh, deadly, uh, incident for law enforcement in this country.

Craig Floyd: 00:05:40

And one of the things that I'm particularly, uh, concerned about, and I was, uh, with the Memorial Fund

Craig Floyd: 00:05:46

and I continue to this day, and I think the message needs to get out.

Craig Floyd: 00:05:49

Too many officers are dying in vehicle crashes.

Craig Floyd: 00:05:54

All right.

Craig Floyd: 00:05:54

They have to respond at high rates of speed to emergencies.

Craig Floyd: 00:05:57

They might be chasing a fleeing suspect.

Craig Floyd: 00:06:00

Um, but it upsets me to think that many of these officers who die

Craig Floyd: 00:06:05

were not wearing their seatbelts, about half of them, actually.

Craig Floyd: 00:06:09

And I'm just interested in your thoughts, having been a cop for so many years.

Craig Floyd: 00:06:14

I'm sure you were in many of those situations where you're driving at high rates of speed.

Craig Floyd: 00:06:18

Um, What is the possible reason why a police officer would

Craig Floyd: 00:06:22

not be wearing their seatbelt knowing the dangers that exist?

Bill Erfurth: 00:06:27

You know, always that comes up and we talk about it at length.

Bill Erfurth: 00:06:30

A lot of cops don't want to wear their seatbelts for two reasons.

Bill Erfurth: 00:06:33

They think it's going to limit their opportunity to get out of the car quickly.

Bill Erfurth: 00:06:37

They need to bail out in a critical situation, a gun fight, something like that.

Bill Erfurth: 00:06:41

The other one is that they feel that the seatbelt itself, especially if you're a right handed shot, is

Bill Erfurth: 00:06:47

going to hinder your ability to draw your weapon, uh, from a seated position while you're buckled in.

Bill Erfurth: 00:06:54

You know, it's interesting that you brought that up because years ago I actually filled in for you in Ohio and

Bill Erfurth: 00:06:58

I sat on the stage with Mike DeWine, the governor of Ohio, and I addressed a huge contingent of law enforcement

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:06

people and I talked about that and I said, you need to wear your seatbelt.

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:10

There's more cops that are killed every year in car accidents than gunfire and I explained to them and

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:17

I used my experiences when I was running the tactical narcotics teams.

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:21

There were countless times where we draw our weapons while we were still buckled in because you didn't have

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:27

the opportunity, you know, we were called the jump out boys and we'd come flying in and, and, uh, do these raids.

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:32

Uh, there were incidents when I was working where we would fire our weapons out of the windows.

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:37

Um, you know, and we, we actually trained that way at the range.

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:41

So it's definitely doable.

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:43

Uh, I never had a problem with it.

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:45

I never could.

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:46

I never had an issue where I didn't feel that my weapon was accessible

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:50

and, uh, I think everybody should definitely wear their seatbelt.

Craig Floyd: 00:07:54

I, I hope all the law enforcement professionals listening to this podcast, uh, take that, uh,

Craig Floyd: 00:08:00

Uh, in the mind as they, uh, you know, get behind the wheel of their car, please buckle your seatbelt.

Craig Floyd: 00:08:06

It's going to save your life from, uh, it may be serious injury, but it could kill you.

Craig Floyd: 00:08:11

And, uh, this is a tough job.

Craig Floyd: 00:08:12

Uh, take every safety precaution possible.

Craig Floyd: 00:08:16

Um, as I reflect on this report, uh, 147 officers died in the line of duty last year.

Craig Floyd: 00:08:22

I can't help but think that when we built the national law enforcement

Craig Floyd: 00:08:25

officers memorial and dedicated it in 1991, there were 12, 560.

Craig Floyd: 00:08:30

61 names on that memorial.

Craig Floyd: 00:08:33

It was less than half filled all the memorial walls, and we thought it would

Craig Floyd: 00:08:37

be at least 100 years before we ever had to worry about those walls being filled.

Craig Floyd: 00:08:42

And we hope that they never would be.

Craig Floyd: 00:08:44

Unfortunately, it took just about 30 years.

Craig Floyd: 00:08:47

For the walls of the National Memorial to be filled.

Craig Floyd: 00:08:50

There's now more than 24,000 names, uh, on the memorial today.

Craig Floyd: 00:08:55

And, uh, sadly with this report, we know there's gonna be hundreds more that will be added.

Craig Floyd: 00:09:00

This may, uh, during National Police Week.

Craig Floyd: 00:09:02

Uh, bill.

Craig Floyd: 00:09:03

Uh, couple other quick stories.

Craig Floyd: 00:09:05

One came out of Fremont, California, you know, with the defund and defame the police movement.

Craig Floyd: 00:09:11

We know that thousands of cops left the profession.

Craig Floyd: 00:09:15

Many retired, many others resigned and went into other professions.

Craig Floyd: 00:09:19

They were so fed up with all the all the viral, you know, the Nasty things that were being said about them and

Craig Floyd: 00:09:27

and officers being charged with crimes for simply doing their job They left the profession and so there's a police

Craig Floyd: 00:09:34

shortage crisis now in this country Uh that we've talked about so much over the last five years And Citizens

Craig Floyd: 00:09:41

Behind the Badge Fremont, California, their police department has had such a crisis of police officer shortage

Craig Floyd: 00:09:49

that they're offering a 100,000 cash incentive to lateral transfers, officers that are serving with other departments.

Craig Floyd: 00:09:57

If they come to Fremont, they get to receive a hundred thousand dollar bonus.

Craig Floyd: 00:10:02

And, you know, when I read about this, I thought of you, Bill, I mean, you've been retired for a few years, but, uh,

Craig Floyd: 00:10:07

would that be enough of an incentive maybe to get you back on the job?

Bill Erfurth: 00:10:13

You know, that's surprising that they're offering that much money, but that just

Bill Erfurth: 00:10:16

tells you how sad it is right now is the, uh, with police recruiting.

Bill Erfurth: 00:10:20

Would I accept that?

Bill Erfurth: 00:10:22

Uh, Craig, you know, me, I would say not even a million dollars would get me to come back and work again.

Bill Erfurth: 00:10:30

Uh, it's just a different era, a different time.

Bill Erfurth: 00:10:34

I'm a happy camper.

Bill Erfurth: 00:10:36

I don't have all the drama and, uh, I think I've pretty much used up my nine lives.

Bill Erfurth: 00:10:41

So.

Bill Erfurth: 00:10:42

No.

Craig Floyd: 00:10:43

Yeah, it's a tough job today.

Craig Floyd: 00:10:45

Certainly different than it was when you, uh, retired from the department after 26 years.

Craig Floyd: 00:10:52

Final story, and I always like to end on a good news story.

Craig Floyd: 00:10:55

I read about this the other day, 10 years ago, a guy by the name of Lavelle Schaefer.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:01

He was a homeless man and a young father.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:04

Um, and, uh, his life was, uh, pretty much a mess.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:07

Um, and he went to a homeless shelter and, uh, met up with some people there that gave him some counseling,

Craig Floyd: 00:11:13

offered him some assistance, how to get his life back on track.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:17

Um, and, and just this past year now, we know that Lavelle Shaffer has become a Chicago police officer.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:25

All right.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:25

He, he, uh, lifted himself up, uh, managed to do the things he needed to do to get his life back in order.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:33

And, uh, today he's out there serving and protecting the citizens of Chicago.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:37

Uh, and actually counseling others that were in his predicament, other

Craig Floyd: 00:11:41

young fathers that were in trouble financially or homeless in many cases.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:46

And, uh, And he's helping, uh, the, these folks get their life straight again.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:50

So, uh, I thought that was a good news story.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:52

Um, he said, my life has come full circle.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:55

It still feels like a movie almost.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:58

And, uh, we can only hope that, you know, other people in his situation, dire straits, uh, your life not going

Craig Floyd: 00:12:04

well can, uh, can maybe, uh, improve themselves the way  Lavelle did.

Craig Floyd: 00:12:08

So, uh, Dennis, I'm going to send it back to you to introduce our very special guest.

Craig Floyd: 00:12:13

Uh, he is a true hero behind the badge.

Dennis Collins: 00:12:18

No question.

Dennis Collins: 00:12:19

Thanks for those stories, guys.

Dennis Collins: 00:12:20

Always interesting when you discuss the current events, but today we have a very special guest, uh, Steven Sund.

Dennis Collins: 00:12:31

Steve's law enforcement journey started with the Metropolitan

Dennis Collins: 00:12:35

PD in Washington, DC, he held various leadership positions.

Dennis Collins: 00:12:39

He had a 25 year, uh, highly decorated, highly remarkable career.

Dennis Collins: 00:12:44

His expertise was in critical incident management.

Dennis Collins: 00:12:48

And special events security.

Dennis Collins: 00:12:49

He handled all the major events.

Dennis Collins: 00:12:51

Can you imagine in Washington DC security operations?

Dennis Collins: 00:12:54

Wow.

Dennis Collins: 00:12:55

What a big job.

Dennis Collins: 00:12:56

He commanded the MPD special operations unit and helped coordinate security for presidential inaugurations,

Dennis Collins: 00:13:04

demonstrations, high profile, high profile events in Washington DC.

Dennis Collins: 00:13:11

But Steve is probably best known for his time with the US Capitol police.

Dennis Collins: 00:13:18

Uh, he joined as assistant chief in 2017 and was promoted in 2019 to chief.

Dennis Collins: 00:13:26

He was indeed the chief during the January 6th capitol riot.

Dennis Collins: 00:13:31

And, um, that will a day that will live in infinite infamy for him, and for many.

Dennis Collins: 00:13:38

Uh, Steve is, um, holds master's degrees from the Homeland Security, uh, post Naval graduate school.

Dennis Collins: 00:13:45

He has a bachelor's and a master's from John Hopson, Hopkins university.

Dennis Collins: 00:13:50

Again, his expertise and leadership have been recognized nationwide by

Dennis Collins: 00:13:55

law enforcement experts who still are often calling upon him for assistance.

Dennis Collins: 00:14:01

He received many commendations during his law enforcement career, including

Dennis Collins: 00:14:05

MPD's Achievement Medal and the Congressional Gold Medal of Honor.

Dennis Collins: 00:14:11

He actually received that medal twice, so I think we should ask him about that a little bit later.

Dennis Collins: 00:14:17

Uh, Steve is also and we're proud to say a member of our law enforcement advisory council for Citizens Behind

Dennis Collins: 00:14:26

the Badge, as you know, and add with advocacy group to stop the defund and defame the police movement.

Dennis Collins: 00:14:33

Steve Sund, thank you a million thank yous for taking time to join us today.

Dennis Collins: 00:14:38

We are so glad to have you.

Steven Sund: 00:14:41

It's an honor to be on with you, gentlemen.

Steven Sund: 00:14:42

Thank you very much for the invitation.

Dennis Collins: 00:14:45

You know, there was a statement that you made, I

Dennis Collins: 00:14:49

think, in your book or something, and you'd have been all out there.

Dennis Collins: 00:14:52

I mean, you've written the book, uh, hardest thing a man ever has to do is write a book, isn't it?

Dennis Collins: 00:14:56

And, uh, there was a statement that hit, that hit me though.

Dennis Collins: 00:15:00

I had gone from nearly, from 25 years in DC, At MPD as a decorated and widely respected leader.

Dennis Collins: 00:15:08

And in one day, I suddenly became publicly humiliated.

Dennis Collins: 00:15:14

That is unbelievable, isn't it?

Dennis Collins: 00:15:17

But it's the way it happens.

Dennis Collins: 00:15:19

Sometimes we get known for that one day.

Dennis Collins: 00:15:22

Instead of our whole body of work.

Dennis Collins: 00:15:25

So you wrote the book.

Dennis Collins: 00:15:27

You've been on 60 minutes.

Dennis Collins: 00:15:28

You've done all the interviews.

Dennis Collins: 00:15:30

You've had a lot to say.

Dennis Collins: 00:15:32

What was your mission?

Dennis Collins: 00:15:33

What was your goal behind writing the book?

Steven Sund: 00:15:37

Wow.

Steven Sund: 00:15:37

I can't say I really started off with a goal.

Steven Sund: 00:15:40

Um, like any, any good police officer, whenever I did a major event, a critical incident, whether it's a, um,

Steven Sund: 00:15:46

a special event security afterwards, you always do an after action.

Steven Sund: 00:15:50

So.

Steven Sund: 00:15:51

With Speaker Pelosi going on the air and calling for my resignation

Steven Sund: 00:15:54

on January 7th, less than 24 hours after we got control of the Capitol.

Steven Sund: 00:15:58

Uh, and then, uh, it was supposed to be a couple of week transition period,

Steven Sund: 00:16:02

uh, for whoever's going to take my place, uh, for me to work with them.

Steven Sund: 00:16:06

And they cut, even cut that transition period and had me, uh, removed from my office, uh, immediately.

Steven Sund: 00:16:11

So that Friday I had to, uh, come in and start moving everything out.

Steven Sund: 00:16:14

I sat down when I was back home and started just collecting my thoughts, just started writing and

Steven Sund: 00:16:19

writing and just putting everything down like I was doing an after

Steven Sund: 00:16:21

action, um, and ended up gathering, you know, information together.

Steven Sund: 00:16:25

And as more and more information came out, I was finally able after the first hearings in February of 2021 before

Steven Sund: 00:16:32

the Senate, I was able to actually go back and request my phone records,

Steven Sund: 00:16:36

video transcripts from the police department to help support my testimony.

Steven Sund: 00:16:41

And started gathering more and more information kind of,

Steven Sund: 00:16:43

you know, stitching this whole thing together in after action.

Steven Sund: 00:16:46

And then I had whistleblowers come out from the intelligence community from the department of defense And

Steven Sund: 00:16:51

I started getting shocked at what I was hearing and again This thing just continued to grow and it almost grew

Steven Sund: 00:16:56

to about 800 pages Uh when it finally started getting getting whittled down and turned into this into the book for

Steven Sund: 00:17:02

me It was telling the story of what really happened, uh in the days and weeks leading up to january 6th on

Steven Sund: 00:17:09

January 6th and then in the fallout, uh, that occurred after it, uh, one,

Steven Sund: 00:17:13

so there's an actual, um, legitimate record of what occurred that day.

Steven Sund: 00:17:18

And two, so, you know, I love law enforcement, uh, love the men and women of law enforcement.

Steven Sund: 00:17:23

I want to see law enforcement do the best it can, it can.

Steven Sund: 00:17:25

And a lot of times agencies live and die on their, um, leadership.

Steven Sund: 00:17:30

You know, you always hear the, uh, the term that, you know, fish rots from the head down.

Steven Sund: 00:17:34

Um, and I wrote this to really help the leadership, you know, that eventually someone's going to, going to take

Steven Sund: 00:17:39

this and look and, and see one, how political influences can affect you,

Steven Sund: 00:17:43

the importance of relationships, mutual aids, things like that.

Steven Sund: 00:17:46

So, you know, I, I really, the mission for me was.

Steven Sund: 00:17:49

To gather together, put together an after action, but as it grew, it was finally just to ensure

Steven Sund: 00:17:54

that people had the actual facts, uh, of what occurred that day.

Steven Sund: 00:17:57

Every fact that's in there, uh, I tried to footnote, I tried to give you

Steven Sund: 00:18:01

access to every information, uh, that I based, um, the, the, uh, writing on.

Steven Sund: 00:18:07

So, you know, it's easy, it's easy for me, the truth is easy

Steven Sund: 00:18:10

and it's easy to just tell the story because it's based on fact.

Dennis Collins: 00:18:13

For those who may not have had the chance yet to read your book, it's called

Dennis Collins: 00:18:17

Courage Under Fire, Under Siege and Outnumbered, 58 to 1 on January 6th.

Dennis Collins: 00:18:23

And I was talking to you before, I, I, I read a lot of books and I will tell you that book has more footnotes

Dennis Collins: 00:18:31

and more research behind it than any book I've read in a long time.

Dennis Collins: 00:18:35

So it's well worth the read and it's well documented.

Dennis Collins: 00:18:38

In fact, Craig has.

Dennis Collins: 00:18:40

The book right there, Courage Under Fear, mine happens to be a Kindle copy, so I do a lot of Kindle readings,

Dennis Collins: 00:18:52

but I understand it's out in hard, paperback, and of course Kindle.

Steven Sund: 00:18:57

Yeah, the paperback came out.

Steven Sund: 00:18:59

Yeah, I was just gonna say real quick.

Steven Sund: 00:19:01

The paperback came out December 3rd, and you'll notice the subtitle changed.

Steven Sund: 00:19:05

No longer is it "Outnumbered 58 to 1" it's the "Definitive Account From Inside The Capitol on January 6th.'.

Dennis Collins: 00:19:10

Okay, that's that's the latest.

Steven Sund: 00:19:13

Because a member of Congress came in and had

Steven Sund: 00:19:17

told me that book should be the abstraction for January 6th.

Steven Sund: 00:19:21

They actually actually endorsed, endorsed that.

Steven Sund: 00:19:23

So it's been I'll tell you, I never expected in my career to write a book.

Steven Sund: 00:19:28

I've done a couple, you know, I've done a thesis.

Steven Sund: 00:19:30

I've done a lot of writing in my career.

Steven Sund: 00:19:32

Never expected to leave writing a book and the response it's gotten from across the country,

Steven Sund: 00:19:37

especially from law enforcement, has been absolutely incredible.

Craig Floyd: 00:19:40

Let me just say that it's the first book I've read this year.

Craig Floyd: 00:19:43

It took me maybe two, three days at most.

Craig Floyd: 00:19:46

It was riveting.

Craig Floyd: 00:19:46

I stayed up late at night reading it, uh, and, and it taught me

Craig Floyd: 00:19:50

so much, uh, about what I did not know about January 6th.

Craig Floyd: 00:19:55

And I think that's what's so important for our, our viewers of the podcast.

Craig Floyd: 00:19:58

And anybody that really wants to get, uh, behind the scenes and understand what really went on,

Craig Floyd: 00:20:03

read this book, uh, Courage Under Fire, the definitive account from Inside the Capitol on January 6th.

Craig Floyd: 00:20:10

Um, you know, it made me angry though, I must say, Steve, um, the idea that

Craig Floyd: 00:20:16

Uh, you were made out to be, uh, the scapegoat, if you will, for January six.

Craig Floyd: 00:20:20

Uh, you were blamed for improper planning and your officers were crucified and vilified even by

Craig Floyd: 00:20:27

members of Congress that were being protected by these men and women whose lives they saved.

Craig Floyd: 00:20:34

Uh, and yet somehow the Capitol Police and you as the chief were blamed and, and you got a raw deal, my friend,

Craig Floyd: 00:20:40

you are a hero with a capital H and I couldn't be prouder to be working

Craig Floyd: 00:20:44

with you at Citizens Behind the Badge and having you on as our guest today.

Craig Floyd: 00:20:48

Bill, I know you feel the same way and you've, you've gotten a little

Craig Floyd: 00:20:51

irritated by what happened on January 6th and now Steve was treated as well.

Bill Erfurth: 00:20:57

Yeah, absolutely.

Bill Erfurth: 00:20:58

And thank you, Steve, for being with us.

Bill Erfurth: 00:21:00

I wanna afford you the opportunity here, and I know you've been on 60 Minutes, you've been on Tucker

Bill Erfurth: 00:21:05

Carlson, you've been on most of every media that there is out there.

Bill Erfurth: 00:21:09

This is like a long-form forum.

Bill Erfurth: 00:21:12

Uh, so we encourage you to feel free to say anything you want, whatever you want to expound on

Bill Erfurth: 00:21:18

it, and, uh, definitely interested to hear your side of everything.

Steven Sund: 00:21:24

Thank you.

Steven Sund: 00:21:24

Look forward to it,

Craig Floyd: 00:21:27

Steve.

Craig Floyd: 00:21:28

Uh, alright.

Craig Floyd: 00:21:29

Let me read from your book.

Craig Floyd: 00:21:30

It says, uh, you said at the end of the, the chapter leading up to the, uh, events of January 6,

Craig Floyd: 00:21:37

quote, I knew that January 6 would be a busy day, but I thought we had put together a good plan for it.

Craig Floyd: 00:21:45

Based on the intelligence we had, I thought we were ready.

Craig Floyd: 00:21:49

Uh, tell us about the planning 6 and why were you so confident that, uh, things would be okay that day?

Steven Sund: 00:21:58

So what's important to realize is January six was not

Steven Sund: 00:22:01

the first, um, uh, Trump rally we had had in Washington, D.

Steven Sund: 00:22:04

C.

Steven Sund: 00:22:06

Oftentimes they're referred to as, uh, the mega rallies make America great again.

Steven Sund: 00:22:10

So we had a mega one in November, uh, mega to December.

Steven Sund: 00:22:14

I think 1st was November 14th.

Steven Sund: 00:22:16

2nd was December 12th.

Steven Sund: 00:22:17

Uh, and then the 3rd 1.

Steven Sund: 00:22:18

was December 6th.

Steven Sund: 00:22:20

Um, the intelligence we were receiving was saying the MAGA 6, the, um, um, sorry, MAGA 3 or, um, the January

Steven Sund: 00:22:28

6th was going to be just like the two previous, uh, MAGA rallies.

Steven Sund: 00:22:32

The big difference between the MAGA 1 and MAGA 2, they were focused on, um, the Supreme Court swaying the Supreme

Steven Sund: 00:22:37

Court because they were still involved in, uh, some of the, um, Adjudication

Steven Sund: 00:22:42

going through the Supreme Court, and now it was focused on the Capitol.

Steven Sund: 00:22:45

So we knew that the focus of the protest would be the Capitol.

Steven Sund: 00:22:49

Any, any protest that's coming up to the Capitol is going to be, the focus is going to be the Capitol.

Steven Sund: 00:22:53

So we had planned on that.

Steven Sund: 00:22:55

The intelligence I was receiving was, it was going to be just like the previous two MAGA rallies.

Steven Sund: 00:22:59

So we had fully activated the police department, fully activated all our, all our resources.

Steven Sund: 00:23:05

Um, Put as many people in hard gear for it.

Steven Sund: 00:23:09

I can do 273 officers and hard gear, which was gonna be my allotment for the perimeter.

Steven Sund: 00:23:16

We had a perimeter set up.

Steven Sund: 00:23:17

That was the exact same perimeter.

Steven Sund: 00:23:19

We had for the 2 previous mag rallies.

Steven Sund: 00:23:21

It was using bike, bike rack for the perimeter.

Steven Sund: 00:23:25

Um, and it was based on the intelligence, based on the briefings I was getting from my intelligence unit,

Steven Sund: 00:23:31

my intelligence unit was also briefing, uh, members of Congress, uh, and the Capitol Police Board, which I'm sure

Steven Sund: 00:23:36

we'll probably talk a little bit about that, a politically appointed board that oversees all, uh, all aspects of,

Steven Sund: 00:23:41

uh, of law enforcement for me, that, you know, coming into it, I felt we had

Steven Sund: 00:23:46

put together a plan very, very similar to the two previous MAGA rallies.

Steven Sund: 00:23:50

The big difference for me was because we had a joint session, excuse me, a joint session of Congress taking place,

Steven Sund: 00:23:58

we had, it was going to require a number of officers to be inside handling the events inside the security inside.

Steven Sund: 00:24:04

So it cut down on the number of officers I had on the perimeter.

Steven Sund: 00:24:07

That's what caused me to go and ask for the National Guard on January 3rd.

Steven Sund: 00:24:11

The fact that I did, I just, I felt I would have liked to have more,

Steven Sund: 00:24:14

uh, more officers on the perimeter because of the limited amount I had.

Craig Floyd: 00:24:18

Interesting.

Craig Floyd: 00:24:19

I, you know, I read this, uh, message, uh, that you all picked up, uh,

Craig Floyd: 00:24:24

law enforcement intelligence anyway picked up, uh, prior to January 6th.

Craig Floyd: 00:24:29

And here's a message that was posted on social media by a protester.

Craig Floyd: 00:24:33

Be ready to fight.

Craig Floyd: 00:24:35

Congress needs to hear glass breaking, doors being kicked in,

Craig Floyd: 00:24:40

get violent, stop calling this a march or rally or a protest.

Craig Floyd: 00:24:44

Go there ready for war.

Craig Floyd: 00:24:47

We get our president or we die.

Craig Floyd: 00:24:50

Now, it seems to me that that's a pretty good warning that you're,

Craig Floyd: 00:24:53

you're going to expect a lot of trouble on January 6th at the U S Capitol.

Craig Floyd: 00:24:57

Your, your officers were obviously targets based on the social media intelligence.

Craig Floyd: 00:25:03

So what went so terribly wrong?

Craig Floyd: 00:25:04

If you had that kind of information, why wasn't the Capitol better protected?

Steven Sund: 00:25:10

So go in and as you read through and you see that intelligence coming in, you'll also

Steven Sund: 00:25:13

see intelligence that listed Um, you may have to kill the palace guards.

Steven Sund: 00:25:17

You probably remember reading that That's a reference to my uh, my officers But look at the intelligence and a

Steven Sund: 00:25:23

lot of a lot of the intelligence you have links to and you'll be able to see Um that we're getting none of the

Steven Sund: 00:25:28

intelligence I had that was coming to me was talking about their social media posts talking about killing Um,

Steven Sund: 00:25:34

my police officers, social media posts talking about an organized, um, attack at the, at the Capitol, you know, I was

Steven Sund: 00:25:40

receiving, you know, again, we, they put out my intelligence unit, put out three intelligence assessments, um, all

Steven Sund: 00:25:47

three of them indicated is going to be previous, just like the two previous, uh, MAGA rallies, uh, not indicating

Steven Sund: 00:25:53

intelligence, like what you just read, not even footnoted in the intelligence.

Steven Sund: 00:25:57

Matter of fact, Um, even on the 4th, the 5th, and the 6th, the

Steven Sund: 00:26:01

last intelligence assessment was produced on Sunday, January 3rd.

Steven Sund: 00:26:05

Um, even, even on Sunday, I had my intelligence officials briefing members of Congress and the Capitol

Steven Sund: 00:26:10

Police Board that it was going to be just like the two MAGA rallies.

Steven Sund: 00:26:13

On the 4th, my intelligence unit put out another, uh, series of reports, a daily intelligence report, indicating

Steven Sund: 00:26:20

that the probability, and, and, and listen to this, the probability of

Steven Sund: 00:26:23

acts of civil disobedience and arrests on January 6th are low to improbable.

Steven Sund: 00:26:29

Think about that.

Dennis Collins: 00:26:30

Yeah.

Steven Sund: 00:26:30

Um, so that, uh, that was the number one thing that I think, uh, affected our planning,

Steven Sund: 00:26:35

uh, and cascaded from there was the, it was the failure of intelligence.

Dennis Collins: 00:26:38

Could I, could I ask a follow up question to that?

Dennis Collins: 00:26:41

Because that, that's, that's a great, you know, I, I know you make a lot, you talk a lot about the intelligence

Dennis Collins: 00:26:47

in the book and when I've seen her interviews with you also, but let me

Dennis Collins: 00:26:51

quote something that you, you said in the book, this was a colossal.

Dennis Collins: 00:26:56

US Capitol Police intelligence failure, plain and simple.

Dennis Collins: 00:27:01

I know there are a number of characters that were circling around here.

Dennis Collins: 00:27:05

One of the central actors was Assistant Chief Pitman, who was apparently your head of intelligence.

Dennis Collins: 00:27:11

She also had two people that you, that were fairly new,

Dennis Collins: 00:27:15

Donahue and Farnham, I think, who were on the intelligence team.

Dennis Collins: 00:27:20

Somehow, somehow the intelligence division didn't tell you what they knew.

Dennis Collins: 00:27:27

What's that story about?

Steven Sund: 00:27:30

So that's a, uh, that, that, that's a good one.

Steven Sund: 00:27:32

You look at it and that's why I think we had a number of intelligence, uh, analysts come out as, as

Steven Sund: 00:27:36

whistleblowers, uh, because I, I'll refer, I referenced it in the book.

Steven Sund: 00:27:40

There's a number of emails where they're talking about this intelligence that's coming in from the U.

Steven Sund: 00:27:43

S.

Steven Sund: 00:27:43

Marshals Service from, from various agencies.

Steven Sund: 00:27:46

They're pushing it up.

Steven Sund: 00:27:47

And it's being provided to the, uh, assistant director of my

Steven Sund: 00:27:50

intelligence, uh, um, division, the director, uh, which is, um.

Steven Sund: 00:27:55

Donahue and Farnham, and then, uh, even up through, uh, the, uh, Deputy Chief at the time was Gallagher,

Steven Sund: 00:28:01

he's now an Assistant Chief there, uh, in Pittman, and wasn't even being put in the, the assessments.

Steven Sund: 00:28:06

That raises a lot of concerns about why that wasn't being handled that way.

Dennis Collins: 00:28:11

Was that, okay, let's just put it out there.

Dennis Collins: 00:28:14

Do you feel that was done purposely or accidentally?

Dennis Collins: 00:28:18

And what's your theory on that?

Steven Sund: 00:28:20

You know, um, there's, you know, I'm again, I provided all the evidence that I, that I

Steven Sund: 00:28:25

have, there's a lot of ways of looking at and thinking about it.

Steven Sund: 00:28:28

It's hard to see the amount of intelligence that they had, uh, and realize that that was not even

Steven Sund: 00:28:35

being put in the assessments, not even being footnoted, uh, and think that it was just by, by accident.

Steven Sund: 00:28:40

I can tell you this.

Steven Sund: 00:28:41

If I was a brand new person as a director, assistant director and

Steven Sund: 00:28:45

intelligence unit, I I'm going to err on the side of caution.

Steven Sund: 00:28:48

I'm going to give them more intelligence than, you know, I'm going to make sure it's all in there because this is, this

Steven Sund: 00:28:53

is my first big event and it's, you know, my, my keister's riding on it,

Steven Sund: 00:28:56

uh, to think that they were sitting on this month, this amount of intelligence.

Steven Sund: 00:29:00

Um, And even the FBI still had an amount of intelligence that we didn't have, but still, they provided enough

Steven Sund: 00:29:06

to my intelligence unit that we could have effectively planned for it.

Steven Sund: 00:29:10

It would have been the intelligence needed to get the Capitol Police Board

Steven Sund: 00:29:14

to approve outside resources, bigger fencing, mutual aid, National Guard.

Steven Sund: 00:29:19

We wouldn't be here.

Steven Sund: 00:29:20

So, um, it's easy to go down some of those rabbit holes to wonder why would

Steven Sund: 00:29:24

they go out of their way to prevent the intelligence from being published.

Steven Sund: 00:29:27

I'm still trying to figure that one out.

Steven Sund: 00:29:30

Uh, there's a number of ways of looking at it, but it is concerning that it wasn't included in the assessments.

Dennis Collins: 00:29:35

Well, let me just, uh, kind of, um, finish out this line of

Dennis Collins: 00:29:38

questioning with a, uh, comment that Pittman made in front of Congress.

Dennis Collins: 00:29:43

I believe she was testifying before a committee and I'll quote, let me be clear, USCP should

Dennis Collins: 00:29:49

have been more prepared for this attack by January 4th, USCP.

Dennis Collins: 00:29:53

New, this would not be like other previous protests.

Dennis Collins: 00:29:57

I am here to offer my sincere apologies on behalf of the department.

Dennis Collins: 00:30:02

What, is that all about?

Steven Sund: 00:30:05

So I think a lot of your viewers are going to know the term CYA.

Steven Sund: 00:30:11

And they have a lot of CYA right there.

Steven Sund: 00:30:14

If that's the case, if that's the case that by January 4th, they

Steven Sund: 00:30:18

knew this was not going to be like any other, any other assessments.

Steven Sund: 00:30:21

Why did they sit on a call with me with all the partner agencies that

Steven Sund: 00:30:24

are brought in on a video call on January 5th and didn't say that?

Steven Sund: 00:30:28

Why were they briefing?

Steven Sund: 00:30:29

Deputy Chief Gallagher was briefing members of Congress and their staff and the Capitol Police Board as late

Steven Sund: 00:30:34

as the afternoon of Tuesday, January 5th, that this was going to be just like the two previous rallies.

Steven Sund: 00:30:39

Yet we're going to go ahead and testify to that later on.

Steven Sund: 00:30:42

That's CYA and, you know, trying to save her job and trying to become the chief.

Bill Erfurth: 00:30:47

So CYA, I want to chime in and say, so CYA cover your ass is a big part of all of this.

Bill Erfurth: 00:30:53

And there's also a lot of people clearly that believe that there was more to this than meets the eye.

Bill Erfurth: 00:31:00

There's even former police officers that worked at the U.

Bill Erfurth: 00:31:05

S.

Bill Erfurth: 00:31:06

Capitol Police Department that feel that it was a setup.

Bill Erfurth: 00:31:09

Also feel that you were set up by Pittman.

Bill Erfurth: 00:31:12

Uh, she clearly undermined you, uh, as far as I'm concerned.

Bill Erfurth: 00:31:18

A number of other people and the politics of this is just beyond the scope.

Bill Erfurth: 00:31:25

So as time has passed, clearly we've heard more things, more of the truth, more of the facts have come out.

Bill Erfurth: 00:31:34

You know, there's some factions that want to compare January 6th to Pearl Harbor, you know, so

Bill Erfurth: 00:31:40

it just so much, so much of this is so complicated, but for you.

Bill Erfurth: 00:31:47

Finally, you've reached the point where you've been exonerated, which has to be a huge burden off your shoulders.

Steven Sund: 00:31:54

Oh, it's a huge burden off the shoulders and to be honest with you, I never really expected to see

Steven Sund: 00:31:59

anything in writing, um, come out with my name on it, uh, from Congress, uh, saying that, that I've been exonerated.

Steven Sund: 00:32:06

It's, uh, it's interesting before that final, that, um, interim,

Steven Sund: 00:32:10

uh, final interim report, uh, came out December 17th.

Steven Sund: 00:32:14

When I last went to testify, I've had people ask me, has anybody ever apologized to you?

Steven Sund: 00:32:17

And it's, it's interesting.

Steven Sund: 00:32:18

So I went to testify September, uh, I think it was September 16th, 2023, uh, before the committee on

Steven Sund: 00:32:25

house administration was one of the last time I publicly testified.

Steven Sund: 00:32:29

And following the testimony, the chair and vice chair, the chair is Barry Loudermilk, vice chair is Norma Torres,

Steven Sund: 00:32:35

a Democrat from California, um, who after January 6th had called for me to be arrested and placed in jail.

Steven Sund: 00:32:42

Uh, because of my, uh, being the chief on January 6th.

Steven Sund: 00:32:46

Um, Norma Torres actually approached me after my testimony, came up and apologized.

Steven Sund: 00:32:50

She was, uh, really the one person that's, that's come out and apologized.

Steven Sund: 00:32:54

So she said, I never realized what you went through before and

Steven Sund: 00:32:57

during January 6th and the effort she did to, uh, try and save us.

Steven Sund: 00:33:00

Uh, gave me a challenge coin, invited me to, uh, to lunch.

Steven Sund: 00:33:02

We haven't had that lunch, but that meant a lot.

Steven Sund: 00:33:05

So now to see Barry Loudermilk in the committee, uh, so with, you know, uh, Norma Torres being the, uh, vice chair,

Steven Sund: 00:33:12

Put out that report, and on page one of that report, literally listing me by

Steven Sund: 00:33:17

name as exonerated really meant a lot, and something I never expected to see.

Craig Floyd: 00:33:21

We've, uh, in a moment we're going to talk about what actually happened on the day of

Craig Floyd: 00:33:26

January 6th, a lot of assault on television, but you obviously had a

Craig Floyd: 00:33:29

different perspective that I think people will find quite interesting.

Craig Floyd: 00:33:34

But let's go back to something you said, which is peculiar to the U.

Craig Floyd: 00:33:37

S.

Craig Floyd: 00:33:37

Capitol Police.

Craig Floyd: 00:33:38

You know, Bill always shares stories about his political frustrations

Craig Floyd: 00:33:43

with his department and all the things he had to deal with.

Craig Floyd: 00:33:46

It pales in comparison to what goes on, uh, with the U S Capitol police.

Craig Floyd: 00:33:52

Um, in many ways you as the chief of police, we're really not in charge of making all the

Craig Floyd: 00:33:58

major decisions about security on January 6th or any other day.

Craig Floyd: 00:34:02

I worked up there for 10 years.

Craig Floyd: 00:34:04

I know exactly.

Craig Floyd: 00:34:05

What you had to deal with.

Craig Floyd: 00:34:06

You have a sergeant at arm in the Senate.

Craig Floyd: 00:34:08

You have a sergeant at arm in the house.

Craig Floyd: 00:34:10

You have the architect of the Capitol.

Craig Floyd: 00:34:13

Uh, and this constitutes the Capitol Police Board.

Craig Floyd: 00:34:16

And those are the people that are really your boss that ultimately make the final decisions.

Craig Floyd: 00:34:21

And, and tell us about why that process really prevented you from

Craig Floyd: 00:34:26

having the National Guard support that you wanted on January six.

Steven Sund: 00:34:32

That's you're, you're absolutely right.

Steven Sund: 00:34:34

The political oversight and the political involvement in security on Capitol Hill has got to stop.

Steven Sund: 00:34:40

Um, the Capitol police board, you have three, I mentioned the three people, uh, House and Senate Sergeant arms,

Steven Sund: 00:34:45

the architect of the Capitol, all three politically appointed people, all three, uh, catering to their, uh,

Steven Sund: 00:34:52

whoever put them in, in, in position, uh, to make sure that they're making decisions that'll, that'll please them.

Steven Sund: 00:34:56

That's, that's a big problem.

Steven Sund: 00:34:58

Uh, what people need to realize is.

Steven Sund: 00:35:00

I was the only chief of police in the United States of America, think about this, that has a federal law, 2 U.

Steven Sund: 00:35:06

S.

Steven Sund: 00:35:06

1970.

Steven Sund: 00:35:08

I would encourage your viewers to look it up, but make sure you look it up before December 2021,

Steven Sund: 00:35:13

because based on my testimony, they've now changed the law.

Steven Sund: 00:35:16

So, 2 U.

Steven Sund: 00:35:17

S.

Steven Sund: 00:35:17

1970 required that I go to those three politically appointed people anytime

Steven Sund: 00:35:21

I wanted to bring in resources from my men and women on Capitol Police.

Steven Sund: 00:35:25

Um, so when I went, uh, I was required by law, I wanted the National Guard.

Steven Sund: 00:35:30

Uh, to support us on the hill.

Steven Sund: 00:35:31

I didn't even want armed National Guard.

Steven Sund: 00:35:33

I wanted unarmed National Guard to help augment my officers on the perimeter

Steven Sund: 00:35:36

just because I know a bike rack with nobody standing behind it is no good.

Steven Sund: 00:35:41

You need to have whether it's National Guard police officers stationed every couple of distance to keep

Steven Sund: 00:35:47

people from, you know, even wanting to try and jump over the bike rack.

Steven Sund: 00:35:51

So January 3rd, you know, looking at it, a number of people are coming downtown.

Steven Sund: 00:35:56

I've done a number of big events.

Steven Sund: 00:35:58

I just.

Steven Sund: 00:35:58

Didn't have the comfort level.

Steven Sund: 00:35:59

I would have liked for the perimeter.

Steven Sund: 00:36:01

Uh, so that's what that's what required me by law to go to the Capitol police board and request the,

Steven Sund: 00:36:06

the use of the National Guard, um, for, uh, to support my perimeter.

Steven Sund: 00:36:10

And I did that the morning of January 3rd, people need to realize January 3rd was a Sunday.

Steven Sund: 00:36:15

Well, why were you working on a Sunday?

Steven Sund: 00:36:17

It was the 1st day of the 117th Congress, regardless of what it is January 3rd that, um, uh, yeah.

Steven Sund: 00:36:23

New Congress, we just, uh, uh, swore in a new Congress now, uh, but it was a new Congress.

Steven Sund: 00:36:29

I went and I saw the sergeant arms nine twenty four in the morning.

Steven Sund: 00:36:32

I still remember because I've looked it up and I pulled my video transcripts, uh, went into see Paul

Steven Sund: 00:36:37

Irving and request the National Guard because I'm required by law.

Steven Sund: 00:36:40

Uh, and he didn't, he wouldn't approve it because he was

Steven Sund: 00:36:42

concerned about the optics of the National Guard on Capitol Hill.

Steven Sund: 00:36:46

And you're likely to hear that term optics come up a little bit more.

Steven Sund: 00:36:49

Um.

Steven Sund: 00:36:50

You know, knowing that, you know, Paul Irving, again, you know, House and Senate Sergeant at Arms, their title

Steven Sund: 00:36:54

is Chief Law Enforcement Official for the House, and Chief Law Enforcement Official for, uh, the Senate.

Steven Sund: 00:37:00

So when you think of the, the Chief, and you think of a Security Premier, you think the Chief's at the top of it.

Steven Sund: 00:37:05

Not really.

Steven Sund: 00:37:06

I've got two Two additional chiefs that were top of me.

Steven Sund: 00:37:09

Um, but needless to say, Paul wouldn't approve it.

Steven Sund: 00:37:11

I then went over to see Mike Stinger, who was the chairman of the Capitol Police Board, uh, to request, um,

Steven Sund: 00:37:17

the National Guard went over to see him right after I left Paul's office.

Steven Sund: 00:37:21

He wasn't in yet, went back at 11 53 AM because again, I've got all my records, uh, went in to ask him.

Steven Sund: 00:37:27

And again, he wouldn't approve it as well.

Steven Sund: 00:37:30

Uh, and later on, I found out that Paul Irving hadn't called him and told him I

Steven Sund: 00:37:32

was coming that, um, they were concerned that Speaker Pelosi wouldn't go for it.

Craig Floyd: 00:37:38

That really hampered your efforts to protect the Capitol.

Steven Sund: 00:37:41

Yes, it did.

Bill Erfurth: 00:37:43

Besides the fact that they didn't think she would

Bill Erfurth: 00:37:45

want to approve that, she, in fact, did not want to do that.

Bill Erfurth: 00:37:50

Ultimately, they Where her political lackeys, if you want to, for, you

Bill Erfurth: 00:37:56

know, for a better description, but she called the shots.

Steven Sund: 00:38:01

That that is correct.

Steven Sund: 00:38:02

She, uh, she, she wields a lot of, uh, a lot of power on Capitol Hill.

Steven Sund: 00:38:05

She's actually the, probably the most powerful member of Congress,

Steven Sund: 00:38:09

uh, at the time was probably the most powerful member of Congress.

Steven Sund: 00:38:12

Speaker of the house wields a, uh, extremely amount of,

Steven Sund: 00:38:15

uh, power and what people need to realize is think about it.

Steven Sund: 00:38:18

So I'm denied twice in advance of January six.

Steven Sund: 00:38:21

Come, come January six, you know, when the, uh, um, uh, riot began to occur on the west front of the

Steven Sund: 00:38:27

Capitol at 1253, you know, made a call to my partner agency, DC police, uh, and we can talk about that.

Steven Sund: 00:38:33

I'd actually reach out to DC police at 10 59 that morning and ask them if they

Steven Sund: 00:38:37

could stage resources nearby in case we needed them, which they did, um.

Steven Sund: 00:38:41

Reached out to Jeff Carroll with the D.

Steven Sund: 00:38:43

C.

Steven Sund: 00:38:43

Police, he immediately was sending in those resources.

Steven Sund: 00:38:47

And then at 12.

Steven Sund: 00:38:48

58 I made my first call to the Capitol Police Board, the two sergeant at arms, requesting permission to bring

Steven Sund: 00:38:52

in those resources that by law I have to ask permission to bring in.

Steven Sund: 00:38:56

Think about it.

Steven Sund: 00:38:57

It would take 71 minutes.

Steven Sund: 00:39:00

11 repeated calls to them before I finally got approval.

Steven Sund: 00:39:03

So, you know, anybody that thinks, well, why, why would they deny it on, on the third, when you

Steven Sund: 00:39:08

ask it in advance, why would they deny it while we're under attack?

Steven Sund: 00:39:11

The attack was occurring right at Stinger's window, right outside his window.

Steven Sund: 00:39:15

And I still, it took 71 minutes.

Steven Sund: 00:39:17

Repeated calls for them to finally approve my request to bring in resources.

Dennis Collins: 00:39:22

What is the, uh, Oh, I'm sorry.

Dennis Collins: 00:39:24

I'm just going to say..

Craig Floyd: 00:39:25

The question I had, uh, since we started Citizens Behind the Badge based on we got

Craig Floyd: 00:39:30

to stop this defund and defame the police movement, right?

Craig Floyd: 00:39:34

It was impacting public safety across the country.

Craig Floyd: 00:39:37

I'm just wondering how much did the defund movement, uh, affect,

Craig Floyd: 00:39:41

uh, your lack of resources, uh, and personnel on January 6th?

Steven Sund: 00:39:47

So that's, that's interesting.

Steven Sund: 00:39:48

I think you're so far the only person I've actually talked to yet that have asked that question.

Steven Sund: 00:39:53

We were facing a 26 million budget cut because Congress, and I think I heard the term was, well, we can't

Steven Sund: 00:40:00

demand these other people, agencies, cut their budget when our own police department's not facing a budget cut.

Steven Sund: 00:40:06

So I was facing a 26 million budget cut.

Steven Sund: 00:40:09

It hadn't been enacted yet, but I was facing it because

Steven Sund: 00:40:11

we were right in the middle of the defund the police movement.

Steven Sund: 00:40:14

What happened with me And again, when you mentioned, I became the Assistant Chief of Operations in 2017, when I very

Steven Sund: 00:40:21

first came in, I immediately started doing an assessment of what equipment, what training do my officers get, and

Steven Sund: 00:40:27

I found that not, like, like DC police, every officer, as soon as you get out of the academy, you get a riot baton,

Steven Sund: 00:40:33

you get a helmet, and you get an APR, air purifying respirator, um, you may not be trained to the level one civil

Steven Sund: 00:40:39

disturbance unit training everyone else, you know, the specialized units get, or the, uh, the civil disturbance

Steven Sund: 00:40:44

unit gets, But at least you're going to have that basic, uh, protection.

Steven Sund: 00:40:49

So, immediately coming in, I said, you know, hey, we need to make sure our officers have this.

Steven Sund: 00:40:53

Um, you may not realize this, Capital Police, only police department in the country that has

Steven Sund: 00:40:58

been subjected to two biological attacks at, um, Anthrax and Ricin.

Steven Sund: 00:41:02

And you know, not every one of their officers is issued an APR.

Steven Sund: 00:41:06

So, needless to say, 2017, I come in, uh, make these, uh, decisions.

Steven Sund: 00:41:10

Say, hey, I want a helmet.

Steven Sund: 00:41:12

Right.

Steven Sund: 00:41:12

But on APR for every officer on the police department, it wouldn't

Steven Sund: 00:41:16

be until October of 2020 that I'd finally get a budget approval.

Steven Sund: 00:41:21

And my CFO found money just to get helmets.

Steven Sund: 00:41:24

That's how long that takes.

Craig Floyd: 00:41:28

Very sad.

Bill Erfurth: 00:41:31

Crazy.

Bill Erfurth: 00:41:31

So the interesting thing, uh, just since we're on this topic and to kind of further that discussion

Bill Erfurth: 00:41:37

is I believe when you were the chief at the time, Steve, your

Bill Erfurth: 00:41:42

budget for the police department was somewhere around 300 million.

Bill Erfurth: 00:41:47

Then we go through the whole defund the police thing, and I understand that

Bill Erfurth: 00:41:51

currently now, today, the budget is up to somewhere around a billion dollars.

Bill Erfurth: 00:41:58

What do you think about that?

Steven Sund: 00:42:00

So, my budget, um, again, I'm a numbers guy.

Steven Sund: 00:42:03

I try to be very, very specific.

Steven Sund: 00:42:04

It was 463 million dollars.

Steven Sund: 00:42:07

Um, And there's a, there's a term you often hear, uh, up on,

Steven Sund: 00:42:11

up on Capitol Hill, never let a, um, disaster go to waste.

Steven Sund: 00:42:14

Um, the budget right now, I think when I had last budget cycle, I think we're right around 752 million.

Steven Sund: 00:42:20

So, um, your viewers may not realize that Capitol Police is

Steven Sund: 00:42:24

about the 25th largest police department in the country.

Steven Sund: 00:42:26

And at the time I had probably about the 12th largest police department.

Steven Sund: 00:42:30

I'm sorry, I had about the 12th largest budget.

Steven Sund: 00:42:33

They're still about the 25th largest police department, and they have about the 6th largest

Steven Sund: 00:42:37

budget of any police department in the United States of America.

Steven Sund: 00:42:40

That is a huge budget.

Bill Erfurth: 00:42:43

And it's interesting that you just talked about the red tape and the difficulty just

Bill Erfurth: 00:42:46

to get helmets, equipment that was necessary for your officers.

Bill Erfurth: 00:42:51

But yet you've got all this, this, the department has all this money.

Bill Erfurth: 00:42:55

And clearly you're not there now.

Bill Erfurth: 00:42:57

And, and I think that there's something in Congress now where they're talking

Bill Erfurth: 00:43:01

about increasing the budget all the way up to a billion dollars.

Bill Erfurth: 00:43:04

I had something that I just read recently and, um, I just find it a

Bill Erfurth: 00:43:09

bit ironic and you had alluded to it just a minute ago about the fact that.

Bill Erfurth: 00:43:14

They have made that statement to you like, well, how can we not defund the police department here when we're

Bill Erfurth: 00:43:21

talking about everybody else defunding and the whole political landscape

Bill Erfurth: 00:43:26

of that whole situation had to be enormously frustrating, I'm sure.

Steven Sund: 00:43:30

Oh, absolutely.

Steven Sund: 00:43:32

Absolutely.

Steven Sund: 00:43:32

You know, you, you want your officers to have the best equipment.

Steven Sund: 00:43:35

You want them to have the best training.

Steven Sund: 00:43:36

Um, but it is, it's, it's, there's, there's just such a demand for the, for the officers up there because,

Steven Sund: 00:43:43

you know, the, the members of Congress want certain doors open.

Steven Sund: 00:43:46

They want access.

Steven Sund: 00:43:47

They want people to have, You know, be able to get in, you know, unfettered access into their constituents.

Steven Sund: 00:43:52

Uh, and it's expensive.

Steven Sund: 00:43:53

It's expensive to, you know, each door open each hour, each, uh, each day it gets, it starts

Steven Sund: 00:43:58

building up, uh, and making demands on the, uh, on the budget.

Steven Sund: 00:44:01

So as the chief, it'd be nice if they just let you focus.

Steven Sund: 00:44:04

I mean, I came in at the time, 25 plus years of law enforcement.

Steven Sund: 00:44:08

Uh, it'd be nice if they'd let me do my, do my job and get the equipment I needed and, and focus on

Steven Sund: 00:44:13

that rather than, um, people just, you know, having ease of access.

Steven Sund: 00:44:16

Um, but I think now they're looking at it.

Steven Sund: 00:44:18

They're looking at the, the threats again, January six, you had the

Steven Sund: 00:44:21

threats, you know, skyrocket against members of Congress.

Steven Sund: 00:44:24

Uh, and I think they're looking at trying to increase budget to, uh, address some of that issue.

Dennis Collins: 00:44:29

Uh, I got one follow up question, um, on all of this, uh, particularly the Capitol police board.

Dennis Collins: 00:44:37

I think you also had oversight committees too, right?

Dennis Collins: 00:44:39

You had several in the Senate and several in the house that were also involved in the mix from time to time.

Steven Sund: 00:44:45

That is correct.

Steven Sund: 00:44:46

I had four oversight committees, two on the House side, two on the Senate side, uh, and it, it wasn't unusual,

Steven Sund: 00:44:51

especially during the, the George Floyd, um, protests that we'd be,

Steven Sund: 00:44:57

you know, gearing up for protests coming up to the, uh, uh, Capitol.

Steven Sund: 00:45:01

I'd have, you know, I'd be putting up fencing, I'd be putting out my officers in riot gear.

Steven Sund: 00:45:05

That I'd get calls from my oversight committees, um, demanding that my officers not be out in riot gear,

Steven Sund: 00:45:10

that they're concerned with the look, uh, and things like that.

Steven Sund: 00:45:13

And I'd, I'd explain exactly why they're there and stuff like that.

Steven Sund: 00:45:17

And ultimately I'd have to have the, the riot gear placed right near them.

Steven Sund: 00:45:21

Because the Capitol Police Board would be like, yeah, no, we need to, uh, need to back this back a little.

Steven Sund: 00:45:26

Even while we were dealing with the, uh, Supreme Court Justice, uh, nominations.

Steven Sund: 00:45:31

And, and think about this.

Steven Sund: 00:45:32

This is how law enforcement is manipulated.

Steven Sund: 00:45:35

You know, we had, you regularly, uh, fence off the East Front of the Capitol, which is, you know,

Steven Sund: 00:45:39

between the Capitol and the Supreme Court or the Library of Congress.

Steven Sund: 00:45:43

Uh, because a lot of members of Congress would come up and park

Steven Sund: 00:45:45

on that, uh, hardscape on the East Front and then go in and vote.

Steven Sund: 00:45:50

Um, they would want, you know, No fencing to be put up so, uh, demonstrators could actually interact

Steven Sund: 00:45:56

with members of Congress to put influence on them, put pressure on them to vote against whether

Steven Sund: 00:46:01

it's Kavanaugh, whether it's, um, and any of the other, uh, Supreme Court justices and think about it.

Steven Sund: 00:46:06

They even fought to keep access into the buildings open and you had, um.

Steven Sund: 00:46:11

The one protester, I think it was Senator Flake, in the elevator put a lot of pressure on the Senator,

Steven Sund: 00:46:19

and by the time the vote came up for the Supreme Court Justice, they actually were able to delay it because

Steven Sund: 00:46:24

he pushed for the FBI to look into the allegations of sexual assault.

Steven Sund: 00:46:29

Uh, and, and so they, they actually succeeded.

Steven Sund: 00:46:31

So you see that and it's just, again, it's just politicizing security and there really is no, no place for it.

Steven Sund: 00:46:37

You know, let the, let the officers do their job, uh, and give it as secure environment as you can.

Dennis Collins: 00:46:43

So today, as we sit here today, years later, Has anything changed?

Dennis Collins: 00:46:48

Is it still run by the Capitol Police Board?

Dennis Collins: 00:46:51

And are there still the political implications that you just spoke about?

Steven Sund: 00:46:56

So, has anything changed?

Steven Sund: 00:46:58

So, December 2021, uh, President Biden changed, uh, signed a, into a law, uh, a change of 2 U.

Steven Sund: 00:47:05

S.

Steven Sund: 00:47:05

1970.

Steven Sund: 00:47:06

It's the, uh, United States Capitol Police, I think it's called the Emergency, uh, Authorization Act

Steven Sund: 00:47:11

or Emergency Assistance Act, that now allows the Chief of Police To

Steven Sund: 00:47:15

request assistance, uh, without going through the capital police board.

Steven Sund: 00:47:19

So if you think I was wrong, why did they change the law?

Steven Sund: 00:47:22

Um, so that they changed that with the amount of budget.

Steven Sund: 00:47:26

I think capital piece have gotten a couple of key things have have happened.

Steven Sund: 00:47:28

They've bought equipment for all the officers.

Steven Sund: 00:47:33

They now need to train to that.

Steven Sund: 00:47:34

So they're they're doing a lot more training.

Steven Sund: 00:47:35

Their city use doing a lot more training with partner agencies, which is which is good.

Steven Sund: 00:47:40

Their intelligence unit.

Steven Sund: 00:47:41

The people that you had mentioned, um, are are not involved in intelligence anymore.

Steven Sund: 00:47:46

The assistant director, the director.

Steven Sund: 00:47:48

Uh, both gone, uh, replaced.

Steven Sund: 00:47:50

They brought in another person, uh, down, I think from NYPD.

Steven Sund: 00:47:53

That seems to be doing a good job.

Steven Sund: 00:47:54

When I talked to some of the analysts now, uh, information's being, uh, captured, being shared, uh, effectively.

Steven Sund: 00:48:01

So I think that's a big key.

Steven Sund: 00:48:03

Um, but again, with intelligence is you don't know what you don't know.

Steven Sund: 00:48:06

So if there is something that is being kept from the chief.

Steven Sund: 00:48:10

You know, it's hard for him to know it.

Steven Sund: 00:48:11

Um, so that is kind of tough, but I think they're doing better with their intelligence sharing.

Steven Sund: 00:48:15

I think they're doing much better with their, um, working with their partner agencies, which is, which is key.

Steven Sund: 00:48:21

Every agency out there.

Steven Sund: 00:48:22

You hope you have a good mutual aid program.

Steven Sund: 00:48:24

I hope you practice it.

Steven Sund: 00:48:25

Um, so I think those are the key things that have that have changed.

Steven Sund: 00:48:28

It's still a wide open campus and it's, it's hard to protect a wide open campus, but that's, that's not gonna change.

Dennis Collins: 00:48:35

Join us next week as we continue our conversation with Chief Stephen Sund.

Dennis Collins: 00:48:40

Next week, we'll hear his minute by minute account of January 6th.

Dennis Collins: 00:48:44

I'm Dennis Collins, and we'll see you next time on Heroes Behind the Badge.