Episode 2

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Published on:

4th Feb 2025

Heroes Behind the Badge: Capitol Police Chief Steve Sund's Story - Part II

Former U.S. Capitol Police Chief Steven Sund provides an unprecedented insider account of January 6th's security response. In this riveting episode, Chief Sund reveals the critical decisions, bureaucratic hurdles, and shocking details of how his officers defended Congress against overwhelming odds.

Key Takeaways:

  • 273 Capitol Police officers faced an estimated 30,000 protesters
  • The National Guard's response was delayed by 71 minutes due to "optics" concerns
  • Despite being vastly outnumbered, officers maintained remarkable restraint with only one shot fired
  • The Capitol was cleared within 5 hours, defying predictions of a 24-hour siege

Timestamps:

00:00:00 - Episode Introduction

00:03:44 - First Signs of Trouble

00:05:15 - Pipe Bomb Discovery

00:09:50 - National Guard Response Issues

00:14:51 - Single Shot Fired

00:20:31 - How Close Were They?

00:25:01 - Political Aftermath

Resources:

• "Courage Under Fire" by Steven Sund: https://www.amazon.com/Courage-under-Fire-Outnumbered-January-ebook/dp/B0BGJRCHM2

• Citizens Behind the Badge website: https://behindbadge.org

Guest Bio:

Steven Sund served as Chief of the U.S. Capitol Police during January 6th, 2021. With 25 years of decorated service in the Metropolitan D.C. Police and expertise in critical incident management, Sund led the Capitol Police response during one of America's most challenging moments.

Connect with Us:

Dennis Collins - Citizens Behind the Badge Board Member

Bill Erfurth - Former Miami-Dade Police Lieutenant

Craig Floyd - Founder, Citizens Behind the Badge

Related Episodes:

• Episode 1: The Lead-Up to January 6th

Transcript
Dennis Collins:

Hello, and welcome to Heroes Behind the Badge.

Dennis Collins:

We tell real stories about real cops, we expose the fake news about police,

Dennis Collins:

and we give you the real truth.

Dennis Collins:

This podcast is brought to you by Citizens Behind the Badge, the leading

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voice of the American people in support of the men and women of law enforcement

Dennis Collins:

dedicated to ending the disastrous movement to defund and defame the police.

Dennis Collins:

I'm your host.

Dennis Collins:

I'm Dennis Collins, a founding board member of Citizens Behind the Badge.

Dennis Collins:

Today, I'm joined by my colleagues, Bill Erfurth and Craig Floyd.

Dennis Collins:

Bill is a retired Miami Dade police lieutenant with 26

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years of decorated service.

Dennis Collins:

He is also a founding board member of Citizens Behind the Badge.

Dennis Collins:

Craig Floyd is the founder and president and CEO of Citizens Behind the Badge.

Dennis Collins:

Many of you may know Craig as the founding CEO emeritus of the National

Dennis Collins:

Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund.

Dennis Collins:

It was Craig who led the teams that built the Law Enforcement Memorial

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and the National Law Enforcement Museum in Washington, D.C. No one has

Dennis Collins:

worked longer or harder than Craig to advocate and support law enforcement.

Dennis Collins:

So, In today's episode, we feature part two of our three part series

Dennis Collins:

featuring a conversation with former U. S. Capitol Police Chief Steven Sund.

Dennis Collins:

I hope you were able to hear part one.

Dennis Collins:

Steve started his law enforcement career with the Metro Washington, D.C. Police.

Dennis Collins:

He held numerous leadership positions over his 25 year career.

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Metro PD's SOD special operations division handling all the major events,

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security operations, and he helped coordinate the security for all the many

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high profile events in the D.C. area.

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Steve moved over to the U. S. Capitol police in 2017.

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He was promoted to chief in 2019.

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He was the chief during the January 6, 2021 riot at the Capitol.

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Steve is also a member of the Citizens Behind the Badge Law

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Enforcement Advisory Council.

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He wrote a book called Courage Under Fire.

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He offers an incredibly detailed and thorough documentation

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of the events leading up to, during, and after the incident.

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This second episode today, Chief Sund offers us his account inside

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January 6, the step by step, minute by minute, as it happened.

Dennis Collins:

Here's part two of our conversation with chief Steven Sund.

Craig Floyd:

I was just going to go back to January 6th and the day of, uh, and

Craig Floyd:

you cited some of the things that were happening that day, but I'm looking at

Craig Floyd:

your book and at 12:20 PM, that's when you first got word that a hundred proud boys

Craig Floyd:

were marching toward the Capitol, which was unexpected, I guess, based on your

Craig Floyd:

intelligence prior that you said nobody would be marching on the Capitol or to

Craig Floyd:

the Capitol, and you also heard rumors that President Trump had indicated he was

Craig Floyd:

going to come to the Capitol that day.

Craig Floyd:

I assume this is when all the red flags and the alarms

Craig Floyd:

were going off in your mind.

Craig Floyd:

You were sitting, I guess, in the command center, uh, watching and

Craig Floyd:

listening to all these reports coming in.

Craig Floyd:

What, what was your initial reaction when you started to realize this thing

Craig Floyd:

was not going the way you had planned?

Steven Sund:

We, we, we anticipated like MAGA 2 when they

Steven Sund:

marched up the Supreme Court.

Steven Sund:

By the capitol.

Steven Sund:

We anticipated that they were gonna march up to the capitol.

Steven Sund:

So having groups come up to the capitol was not unanticipated.

Steven Sund:

We had expected them to march up there.

Steven Sund:

We just didn't expect 'em to, uh, start attacking my officers like they did.

Steven Sund:

Um, many in the group, we can talk about that.

Steven Sund:

'cause I don't believe it was, uh, the entire groups.

Steven Sund:

I think you had a small group of, uh, what we call es disturbers, uh, in there.

Steven Sund:

But needless to say, the Proud Boys came up.

Steven Sund:

I remember being in the command center, them saying, "hey, we've got a group

Steven Sund:

of Proud Boys coming up." They kind of marched, uh, up one of the, um, uh, around

Steven Sund:

one of the roadways, uh, by the Capitol.

Steven Sund:

We watched them kind of come around toward the east front of the Capitol

Steven Sund:

um, and then I believe they, they disappeared and went down, back down

Steven Sund:

toward the mall again, uh, after that.

Steven Sund:

And then shortly after that, we ended up having our first pipe bomb over at the,

Steven Sund:

um, Capitol Hill Club, the Republican, excuse me, Republican National Committee.

Craig Floyd:

There were actually two pipe bombs as I recall.

Craig Floyd:

I mean, you're dealing with a mob coming, uh, to attack your officers and take

Craig Floyd:

over the Capitol, but you're also hearing reports of two pipe bombs that had been

Craig Floyd:

planted, one at the, uh, Republican National Committee headquarters, one at

Craig Floyd:

the Democratic National Headquarters.

Craig Floyd:

You heard about a car that was found with, loaded with guns and, uh,

Craig Floyd:

ammunition and all sorts of bad devices.

Craig Floyd:

Um, you were dealing with a lot more than just the riot.

Craig Floyd:

It was incredible to me that somehow you were able to coordinate and manage

Craig Floyd:

all of this as chaos was erupting.

Steven Sund:

And it's interesting right around 12-noon things started, you

Steven Sund:

know, kind of speeding up a little bit.

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36 we had Vice President Pence's motorcade arrived because he's, you

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know, he's the head of the Senate.

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He's the deciding vote on the Senate.

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So he was there overseeing the certification of the vote.

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36, his motorcade arrives, watch it arrive, see him get escorted into

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the Senate carriage and then 12:43.

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You know, I'm sitting in the command center, I'm kind of watching everything

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and we're seeing the large crowds down by the, uh, the ellipse, and I look

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over to my left and I see, um, my watch commander, um, John Wisham, Lieutenant

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John Wisham, who was previously one of my bomb squad commanders, just may

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happen to be, be that way, but I see him looking at his phone and he keeps looking

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back at me and it's one of those things where you can tell, uh, something's up.

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He's talking to somebody.

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Something's up.

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And finally I see a image come up on a cell phone and I see his eyes grow really

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big and he turns back and I see him come walking over to me and he shows me the

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picture of the very first pipe bomb with the uh, the kitchen timer the the pipe,

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um, the galvanized steel with the wires coming out of it, you know, anybody

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can tell that's uh, not not good news.

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So we immediately start sending resources over in that, that, uh, that direction.

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We'd actually received a call into the command center, uh, uh, by a retired

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Capitol Police officer that was working for the Capitol Hill Club right next

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door that had been alerted to it.

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So he had taken a picture of it and sent it up to John Wisham.

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So that's kind of how that cascaded so quickly.

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Um, so we started sending resources over there, started evacuating

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part of the Cannon House office building, which oversaw the alley

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where the pipe bomb was found.

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Um, and then at 12:53, as we're dealing with that, somebody looks up

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and says, Chief, there's a large crowd of people approaching our West Front.

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I look up and I literally see hundreds of people coming across the Maryland

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Avenue, um, uh, circle up toward the West Front and then the Peace

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Circle by Pennsylvania Avenue coming up toward the, uh, the West Front.

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Um, and immediately became confrontational with my officers.

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And that's when I knew, there's a couple of key things that I knew were bad.

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One, The fact that like most protests they'll come up and they'll

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start chanting and yelling and screaming and then eventually you

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might start pulling on the fence.

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This happened rather quickly They started grabbing at the fence yanking

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at the fence and then striking at my officers and two key things struck me

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one um, my my fence line, I have very few officers down there and none of the

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officers were wearing their hard gear.

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You know, after MAGA 1 and MAGA 2, we had done after action reports.

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After action reports had one, people need to be in place early.

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People need to be in their hard gear early, and you need to

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keep all your equipment nearby.

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Um, so I was, I was really concerned.

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We, we had nobody down there in hard gear.

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So I turned to my assistant chief on my right, Chief Thomas, and I said, Hey,

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where, where, where the hell's our CDU?

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Get our CDU down there immediately.

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And this was before the very first fence, uh, had come down.

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Um, and then as soon as I saw that put my first call over to, um, D.C.

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Police requesting their assistance.

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So when you're your viewers are looking back at January six and they see these

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officers come in wearing the green and black jackets, those were the bicycle

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platoons that Jeff Carroll, the assistant chief of D.C. Police had placed on

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Constitution Avenue, which, you know, will always be thankful for them.

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So they came in really quick.

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Um, 12:58.

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I make my first call the Capitol Police Board.

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And it's not till 2:09, 71 minutes later, that the Capitol Police Board gives

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me permission to bring in resources.

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Think about that.

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You may not realize it took 81 minutes for that crowd to fight its

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way up to the Capitol, break the first window, and enter the Capitol.

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And for 71 of those minutes, I was repeatedly denied, uh, the

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ability to bring in resources.

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But, you know, as you, as you read about in the book, after a couple of calls

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and not getting approval, I started calling every chief of police I knew.

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I saw what my officers, my men and women were going through.

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I started picking up the phone and, and I was calling federal resources,

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even though by law, you know, I'm, I'm prevented to until I have permission.

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I didn't have permission.

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I started calling Secret Service, FBI, uh, starting calling, um, uh,

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agencies, partner agencies, Virginia State Police, Gary Settles, who just

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retired, uh, called him, friends of mine that I knew would, would send me

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resources as quick as possible, begging them for anything they could send.

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Um, 1:49, I went ahead and called National Guard.

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And again, I still hadn't been received approval.

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I called William Walker, the commanding general of the National Guard and said,

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"send me anything you can, please.

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I'll have permission from the Capitol Police Board any minute, but please,

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this is life and death send me whatever resources you can." Um, and and and

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think about it it wouldn't be four minutes after that before I'd finally

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get approval and even once I got approval Pentagon out wouldn't send the assistance.

Craig Floyd:

Unbelievable.

Craig Floyd:

I, let's talk about that.

Craig Floyd:

Um, General Walter Piatt, uh, was on that call with you that day.

Craig Floyd:

Uh, okay.

Craig Floyd:

Your, your sergeant at arms had finally given you approval to get the guard.

Craig Floyd:

Uh, and now apparently you still had to make the case and plead

Craig Floyd:

for help from the, uh, U. S. military, the Department of Defense.

Craig Floyd:

And this guy, General Walter Piatt, uh, tells you he doesn't like the optics,

Craig Floyd:

uh, and his recommendation to the Secretary of the Army is not to support

Craig Floyd:

the request for National Guard support.

Craig Floyd:

How in the hell can he take that position and, and how did you

Craig Floyd:

feel when you were hearing this?

Craig Floyd:

This is unbelievable.

Steven Sund:

I was, I was absolutely stunned and dumbfounded.

Steven Sund:

So, um, 2:09, when I get the approval, I immediately call Walker.

Steven Sund:

I said, Hey, I now have approval and people need to realize

Steven Sund:

there's 180 National Guard troops within eyesight of the Capitol.

Steven Sund:

I'm thinking the cavalry is on its way.

Steven Sund:

You know, the next biggest cadre of people I have besides D.C. Police is

Steven Sund:

National Guard, which has, you know, 180 troops with an eyesight of the

Steven Sund:

Capitol and a 40 member quick reactionary force out at a Joint Base Andrews.

Steven Sund:

Um, so I I'm thinking they're on their way.

Steven Sund:

2:34, I get contacted by Dr. Christopher Rodriguez with the D.C.,

Steven Sund:

um, um, Office of Homeland Security Emergency Management Agency saying

Steven Sund:

the Pentagon wants me on a call.

Steven Sund:

Uh, finally get patched into the call, excuse me, finally get patched

Steven Sund:

into the call and that's where Lieutenant General Walter Piatt is

Steven Sund:

on the call saying, hey, I understand you're requesting National Guard.

Steven Sund:

Now, on this call is Mayor Bowser, Robert Conteee, Earl Matthews, who will

Steven Sund:

later come out as a, as a whistleblower on my behalf, he's a, he was actually

Steven Sund:

the general counsel at one time for the army, a Harvard graduate lawyer, but

Steven Sund:

he's at the Pentagon, or I don't know where his location, but he's on the call.

Steven Sund:

William Walker, uh, Christopher Flynn, uh, General Christopher Flynn's on the call.

Steven Sund:

So I get on the call and they said, "hey, you're requesting National

Steven Sund:

Guard assistance?" I said, "Yes, this is a life and death situation.

Steven Sund:

I need National Guard assistance as quickly as possible to help

Steven Sund:

to re secure the perimeter."

Steven Sund:

Exactly what I wanted to do.

Steven Sund:

And that's when Walter Piatt responds, "I don't like the optics of the

Steven Sund:

National Guard." That's the second time I've heard the term optics.

Steven Sund:

"I don't like the optics of the National Guard standing in line with the Capitol

Steven Sund:

in the background." And he starts saying, "I'd rather relieve your officers off

Steven Sund:

posts so they can get in the fight."

Steven Sund:

I tell him, I said, "I don't have that option.

Steven Sund:

Every one of my officers is in the fight." And he's like, well, you

Steven Sund:

know, "I don't like the optics." We keep going back and forth.

Steven Sund:

And he keeps recommending that he relieve my officers.

Steven Sund:

And I said, "sir, you don't realize my officers are all in the fight.

Steven Sund:

I don't have officers out there on traffic posts.

Steven Sund:

They're all in the fight." And he responds, and I will never forget

Steven Sund:

this, he said, "my recommendation, I'm going to make a recommendation

Steven Sund:

to the Secretary of the Army.

Steven Sund:

My recommendation is not to support your request." I was absolutely floored

Steven Sund:

and dumbfounded. I remember Robert Contee and those of you that may know

Steven Sund:

him, he can be a little abrupt at times. He said, "hold on a second.

Steven Sund:

You're denying the request from the Capitol Police chief?" And

Steven Sund:

again Walter Piatt says the same thing is "I'm not denying it.

Steven Sund:

I just don't like the optics of the National Guard standing in line.

Steven Sund:

I would much rather leave your your officers." I said "I don't

Steven Sund:

have that option." 2:43 p. m We now have a shooting inside the Capitol.

Steven Sund:

Um, we had had a report of a what sounded like a gunshot before it

Steven Sund:

turned out not to be a gunshot.

Steven Sund:

But this time we started getting reports that we have at least one

Steven Sund:

person, uh suffering from gunshot wound.

Steven Sund:

I'm still on the call with the Pentagon.

Steven Sund:

I tell everybody on the call, I said, you know, "we have shooting inside

Steven Sund:

the Capitol. We have a shooting inside the Capitol. Is that urgent enough

Steven Sund:

for you now?" And hang up the phone.

Steven Sund:

Because I now have to call the Capitol Police Board, tell them what we've got,

Steven Sund:

uh, got going on dealing with that.

Steven Sund:

You know, the Pentagon wasn't sending me resources, but you

Steven Sund:

know what they were doing?

Steven Sund:

They were sending resources to secure generals homes that

Steven Sund:

weren't even under attack.

Steven Sund:

So think about that.

Steven Sund:

2:43, I hang up the phone call, I'm thinking, I got no idea,

Steven Sund:

what what's going to happen?

Steven Sund:

I didn't get a result from that.

Steven Sund:

Uh, it wouldn't be until 5:44 p.m. that the first cadre and national

Steven Sund:

guard showed up at that point.

Steven Sund:

I didn't even need them anymore.

Steven Sund:

I'd called in 17 law enforcement agencies 1700 police officers had

Steven Sund:

responded to my call for assistance.

Steven Sund:

Police officers from as far away as New Jersey State Police responded to my

Steven Sund:

request, uh, and arrived at the Capitol before the National Guard, D.C. National

Steven Sund:

Guard, which were with an eyesight.

Steven Sund:

Think about that.

Craig Floyd:

The military let you down so badly.

Craig Floyd:

It's hard to believe, you know, we think the military is there to support

Craig Floyd:

us, protect our nation, protect the Capitol if it's under attack, but

Craig Floyd:

they didn't want any part of it.

Craig Floyd:

Uh, incredible.

Craig Floyd:

Talk to us about, um, the gunshots that were fired at the Capitol.

Craig Floyd:

During that call, you get the, the word that, that it's happened.

Craig Floyd:

Um, tell us who was shot, why they were shot, and, uh, you know, was it justified?

Steven Sund:

Again, so going back, um, shooting had to be right around

Steven Sund:

12, um, sorry, 2:43 p.m. It was, um, one, only one gunshot that I'm aware

Steven Sund:

of, uh, one, one gunshot inside.

Steven Sund:

It was, um, an individual, uh, was, um, climbing through one of the last, uh,

Steven Sund:

physical, uh, pains, um, that separated, um, the members of Congress from the,

Steven Sund:

uh, from the protests, uh, and a person that's assigned to the, um, um, House

Steven Sund:

chambers actually was, uh, one that fired the bullet on their name is now

Steven Sund:

gotten out, Lieutenant Michael Byrd.

Steven Sund:

He fired around at a female that was climbing through the,

Steven Sund:

uh, through the window again.

Steven Sund:

You know, um, the word I got was that we had a shooting.

Steven Sund:

At the time we we knew it was a serious shooting because I remember talking with

Steven Sund:

my internal affairs Commander telling them to make sure that they notified D.C.

Steven Sund:

Police because D.C. Police has to do the investigation for any shooting or possible

Steven Sund:

homicide that occurs So I remember telling him that and then we got word that she was

Steven Sund:

being transported and it wasn't till later that we got word that she had passed.

Steven Sund:

I'll tell you any loss of life is absolutely tragic but again, I was

Steven Sund:

I was removed, uh, the very next day, uh, so don't, you know, I'm not

Steven Sund:

there for the, for the investigation.

Steven Sund:

I'm not there to see how it progresses through, you know, the, uh, uh, you

Steven Sund:

know, uh, pulling together of a, uh, of a grand jury, the usual process

Steven Sund:

that would occur in, uh, in D.C.. I'm not exactly sure what, what steps.

Steven Sund:

Uh, occurred with him, but ultimately the Department of Justice, FBI, uh,

Steven Sund:

um, and MPD, and even the internal investigation at Capitol, these, uh,

Steven Sund:

came back and found it as a, declared it as a justifiable use of force.

Craig Floyd:

I think one of the main reasons was there

Craig Floyd:

were still House members in.

Craig Floyd:

Uh, in, in, uh, within feet, I guess, of the speaker's lobby,

Craig Floyd:

they were on the house floor.

Craig Floyd:

They still hadn't been cleared.

Craig Floyd:

And so, uh, that officer was trying to protect members of Congress from, uh,

Craig Floyd:

what they thought were armed protesters that were now trying to, to get to them.

Craig Floyd:

And, uh, it seemed to me that, uh, what was most shocking when I was reading

Craig Floyd:

this, One gunshot fired the entire day.

Craig Floyd:

You know, you have hand to hand combat going on.

Craig Floyd:

Your officers have been beaten up.

Craig Floyd:

Uh, their lives are at stake.

Craig Floyd:

Uh, and yet they restrain themselves from using lethal force.

Craig Floyd:

How, how do you explain that?

Craig Floyd:

And, and do you think they should have been more, um, quick to use

Craig Floyd:

lethal force that day to protect themselves and the Capitol?

Steven Sund:

Uh, I'm, I'm thankful for the restraint, um, that the officer

Steven Sund:

showed, the 17 law enforcement agencies that responded, they all used very,

Steven Sund:

very similar, um, levels of force because that's how we're trained.

Steven Sund:

When you look at it, especially in a civil disturbance, uh, type

Steven Sund:

of, um, um, environment, you're not trained to go to lethal force.

Steven Sund:

You're trained to go to mechanical force, chemical force, these type of things.

Steven Sund:

Lethal force, you know, you know, especially a bill with your your

Steven Sund:

training, you know, you're responsible for every projectile that leaves at that

Steven Sund:

barrel if you have reason to resort to lethal force, and I'll tell you, um,

Steven Sund:

one of the D.C. police officers was actually one of their farms instructor,

Steven Sund:

and he had said that there was.

Steven Sund:

numerous opportunities.

Steven Sund:

You have, we had people that were pulling a piece of two by four off the inaugural

Steven Sund:

platform and striking at the officers.

Steven Sund:

And some of these still had the nails sticking out of them.

Steven Sund:

And, um, he said you had plenty of opportunity that probably would

Steven Sund:

have legitimately, um, supported responding to lethal force.

Steven Sund:

It's just tactically wasn't the right thing to do.

Steven Sund:

You had thousands of people behind these protesters.

Steven Sund:

You know, you're, you're stressed up.

Steven Sund:

You're, uh, you're pumped up if you miss.

Steven Sund:

Yeah.

Steven Sund:

You're responsible if you hit an innocent person.

Steven Sund:

Uh, so tactically, uh, legally, they probably could have.

Steven Sund:

Tactically, it wasn't the right thing to do and I support that.

Steven Sund:

So I'm happy that these agencies that responded to all kind of

Steven Sund:

use the same similar use of force continuum because that's what,

Steven Sund:

that's what we're trained to do.

Steven Sund:

Um, so I'm, I'm, I'm certainly proud of that aspect of it.

Dennis Collins:

Steve, Steve, how, how close, based on what you just told us

Dennis Collins:

about the person trying to break through into the chambers, how close do you

Dennis Collins:

think the rioters were to getting their actual hands on a member of Congress?

Dennis Collins:

And what do you think would have happened if they did?

Steven Sund:

So group mentality is very, very, you know, bad things happen when you

Steven Sund:

get people in big groups and they and they start developing this group mentality.

Steven Sund:

I think, you know, if there was a couple of cases where I think if, and there

Steven Sund:

were some pretty close calls with members of Congress that were moving and the

Steven Sund:

crowd was coming through the Capitol, I think if you would have had the crowd

Steven Sund:

get a hold on, you know, especially a notorious member of Congress, it

Steven Sund:

could have been really, really bad.

Steven Sund:

And I'll tell you, if it hadn't been for D.C. Police, think about it, if I

Steven Sund:

hadn't reached out to Jeff Crow at 10:59 in the morning, and he had put seven CDU

Steven Sund:

platoons, you know, about 220 officers on Constitution Avenue, you know, that 81

Steven Sund:

minutes that they were delayed, the group was delayed in breaking into the Capitol,

Steven Sund:

because D.C. Police ended up putting a thousand officers up at the Capitol.

Steven Sund:

Um, if they hadn't gotten there that quickly, that group would have breached

Steven Sund:

the Capitol much quicker than 81 minutes, capturing, you know, trapping, um,

Steven Sund:

Vice President, the, um, both the House and Senate chambers, most likely in

Steven Sund:

their, in their, um, in their chambers.

Steven Sund:

I have no doubt the, uh, use of force would have been significantly higher,

Steven Sund:

um, possible lethal use of force, maybe, uh, would have been significantly higher,

Steven Sund:

and I think we'd be dealing with, um, a lot more injuries, if not worse, um.

Steven Sund:

So I, I, I hope that answered the question.

Steven Sund:

I'm not sure.

Dennis Collins:

No, it did.

Dennis Collins:

I mean, I, I just, you know, we hadn't really heard, how close did it come,

Dennis Collins:

and apparently it was pretty close.

Steven Sund:

It was, it was maybe, maybe 15 yards.

Dennis Collins:

Wow.

Steven Sund:

And you, and you needed to realize when the attack began at 12:53.

Steven Sund:

That's almost two hours.

Steven Sund:

Two hours that these officers are hearing over the radio that this

Steven Sund:

crowd's getting closer closer and closer Uh, and uh 100-percent the uh,

Steven Sund:

the evacuation of the house and senate should have been called much quicker.

Steven Sund:

Uh, but needless to say, um, getting closer and closer and

Steven Sund:

closer and now almost two hours later, you have literally the last

Steven Sund:

physical barrier Is being breached.

Steven Sund:

Um, so, you know, you just got to take that in consideration.

Steven Sund:

It's a terrible, terrible situation again.

Steven Sund:

You know, a day doesn't go by that.

Steven Sund:

I don't think about January 6.

Steven Sund:

I don't think about, you know, any, uh, any of the, you know,

Steven Sund:

the loss of Ashley Babbitt.

Steven Sund:

Uh, it's it's tragic.

Steven Sund:

But again, you know, the, the officers had, you know, dealing

Steven Sund:

with a protective mission.

Steven Sund:

So I've heard people, you know, people say, oh, that wouldn't have

Steven Sund:

happened at, you know, if, um, they wouldn't have resorted to

Steven Sund:

lethal force at, at other location.

Steven Sund:

I can tell you right now, you have a group like that, that's attacking, whether it's

Steven Sund:

the Buckingham palace and the, uh, White House, or even, um, People headquarters

Steven Sund:

things bad things are going to happen.

Craig Floyd:

Let's talk about the aftermath.

Craig Floyd:

You've retaken the capital.

Craig Floyd:

Not a single member of Congress or their staff was injured that day.

Craig Floyd:

Yet you had 10,000.

Craig Floyd:

mob members, uh, trying to, uh, cause harm, uh, to people and,

Craig Floyd:

and to the Capitol itself, um, and yet no injuries to the key people.

Craig Floyd:

Uh, you got the Capitol cleared within hours of the, uh,

Craig Floyd:

initial, uh, protests beginning.

Craig Floyd:

Uh, and then, uh, they ended up certifying.

Craig Floyd:

the president as they attempted to do early on, uh within

Craig Floyd:

hours of the the protest.

Craig Floyd:

Um to me that says that uh, you mentioned the odds 58 to one You were

Craig Floyd:

outnumbered, 10,000 or more protesters.

Craig Floyd:

How many how many police officers did you have steve fighting them off?

Steven Sund:

So At one point there was, um, a, a, uh, somebody came in

Steven Sund:

and did a study on the West front.

Steven Sund:

At one point they counted 30,000 people on the West front on January 6th.

Steven Sund:

And again, um, I think you have a number of people that you have,

Steven Sund:

uh, some groups of people in there that came to do bad things.

Steven Sund:

Uh, then I think, you know, again, you'd run into that group mentality.

Steven Sund:

I think you have a number of people in the group that, I refer to them as

Steven Sund:

strap hangers that just kind of followed along and say, Hey, what's going on?

Steven Sund:

And that's when you went up and you know, you saw people walking in walking through

Steven Sund:

taking pictures, you know, following, you know standing between the the stanchions

Steven Sund:

and the capital following all the rules.

Steven Sund:

Uh, so I think there was people that came to do bad things and there are

Steven Sund:

people that just got drawn into it.

Steven Sund:

Uh, and hopefully we'll get to address some of the issues with you know these

Steven Sund:

allegations of my officers holding open doors and waving people in um, but um.

Steven Sund:

Yeah, it was, it was, uh, you figure a number of officers I had.

Steven Sund:

We had initially 273 assigned to the perimeter.

Steven Sund:

We ended up calling in 17 law enforcement agency.

Steven Sund:

1700 police officers responded that call.

Steven Sund:

Um, so eventually we were able to clear the capital when people said,

Steven Sund:

um, we had a number of talking heads on TV saying it would be 24 hours, at

Steven Sund:

least before they regain the capital.

Steven Sund:

We regained it in five hours.

Steven Sund:

I mean, they were back um, we could have gone back into chambers by

Steven Sund:

7:30 p.m., they elected to go in a little bit later, um, but that's

Steven Sund:

that's that's pretty remarkable.

Steven Sund:

And I'm thankful for the law enforcement support we got.

Craig Floyd:

To make that why I was so angry when I read the book and

Craig Floyd:

and heard all of these, uh, you know facts and and figures that go along

Craig Floyd:

with January 6th that you were really a hero your officers were heroes.

Craig Floyd:

They they fought a mob.

Craig Floyd:

They did they fired one gunshot the entire day when their lives were on

Craig Floyd:

the line clearly and they had lethal force options available to them.

Craig Floyd:

Uh, no member of congress is hurt.

Craig Floyd:

No staff members hurt.

Craig Floyd:

Everybody reconvened within hours.

Craig Floyd:

Um, the certification goes ahead and is successful.

Craig Floyd:

Um, and, and so to me that that's heroic.

Craig Floyd:

That means you guys did an amazing job that day.

Craig Floyd:

And yet on January 7th, uh, just 24 hours later, roughly, uh, you heard

Craig Floyd:

that Nancy Pelosi was going to be going on TV and she had a message for you.

Craig Floyd:

Tell us about that.

Steven Sund:

Yeah, so the, the following day, um, we had been up, uh, you know,

Steven Sund:

we were working on a press release, uh, put together a press release, and again,

Steven Sund:

just the idea of the press release, it had to go through almost 10 hours of

Steven Sund:

review before our first press release could get, um, get put out there.

Steven Sund:

So, you know, all, all night long we're dealing with this stuff.

Steven Sund:

I'm, um, talking with, um, various, um, officers, members of Congress.

Steven Sund:

Uh, I had a couple of very interesting, uh, calls with members of Congress that

Steven Sund:

got very, uh, heated, uh, but needless to say, one o'clock the next morning,

Steven Sund:

we've been trying to, you know, we've been briefing, uh, leadership, we've

Steven Sund:

been trying to set up a briefing for Speaker Pelosi's office, but needless

Steven Sund:

to say, the next morning, I mean, the next day, at one o'clock, I'm in,

Steven Sund:

uh, briefing, uh, Roy Blunt, he's the chairman of the Senate Rules Committee,

Steven Sund:

one of my oversight committees, and as I'm briefing him about, you know, what,

Steven Sund:

what we're doing, what's, what happened, what happened, what we're doing moving

Steven Sund:

forward, um, I see, my Chief of Staff looking at her phone and get up and leave.

Steven Sund:

Come back in, tap my general counsel on the shoulder.

Steven Sund:

They walk out the next, you know, she comes back in goes "hey chief, you need to

Steven Sund:

step out we need I need to talk to you." So I told him Senator Blunt, one of my

Steven Sund:

assistant chiefs was going to take over I stepped out and they said we just got word

Steven Sund:

uh that Speaker Pelosi was going to go on national tv and call for your resignation.

Steven Sund:

Now i'd gotten a call from a staffer a high level staffer.

Steven Sund:

Uh, Jamie Fleet uh, that, uh, works for Pelosi, but I'm

Steven Sund:

briefing a member, a senator.

Steven Sund:

I'm not gonna, you know, pick up for, for somebody else,

Steven Sund:

so I let it go to voicemail.

Steven Sund:

But they said that Jamie Fleet had reached out to them, said, Chair

Steven Sund:

Pelosi was gonna go on national TV and call for my resignation.

Steven Sund:

Um, I thought about just going in and finishing their briefing.

Steven Sund:

My staff talked me into going in and watching the, uh, the press conference.

Steven Sund:

Went in and watched the, uh, the press conference, and it was interesting.

Steven Sund:

About 23 minute press, uh, press conference and it wasn't toward the very

Steven Sund:

end that it almost seems like it was a, a stage question that they asked,

Steven Sund:

"Hey, speaker, what are you going to do about the security, uh, issues at the,

Steven Sund:

uh, at the Capitol?" and that's when she kind of hummed and hawed, you go

Steven Sund:

back and look at it and it's all over YouTube, um, hums and haws a little

Steven Sund:

bit, talks about doing an after action.

Steven Sund:

That is where she probably should have stopped.

Steven Sund:

Do an after action, base your personnel decisions on the after action.

Steven Sund:

That would have been the appropriate thing to do.

Steven Sund:

But then she goes, um, calling for the resignation of, of Steve, of Mr. Sund.

Steven Sund:

Didn't even pronounce my name right, and I've talked to her a couple of times.

Steven Sund:

Um, she says there was a failure of leadership at the top.

Steven Sund:

Um, yeah, there was, it wasn't, like I say, it was mine, but there was, um,

Steven Sund:

uh, and that, and then she adds, "and I haven't even spoke to him since this

Steven Sund:

occurred", I spoke to her three times.

Steven Sund:

So needless to say, she goes on TV, uh, blames me for the, uh, uh, failure

Steven Sund:

that, uh, caused the, uh, attack at the Capitol, uh, and then counts and paints

Steven Sund:

me as a callous and disrespectful chief by not even talking to the speaker.

Steven Sund:

And I'd spoken to her three times.

Bill Erfurth:

So clearly I want to chime in about that because that brings up

Bill Erfurth:

another point and this came out recently.

Bill Erfurth:

You know, her daughter had done a documentary about Nancy Pelosi and

Bill Erfurth:

about the Capitol and about the whole.

Bill Erfurth:

Events that unfolded it's come out now it's been on ABC.

Bill Erfurth:

It's been all over YouTube.

Bill Erfurth:

It's been all over the internet.

Bill Erfurth:

Other news sources have reported it during this documentary that Nancy

Bill Erfurth:

Pelosi's daughter was producing, Nancy Pelosi admitted that she should

Bill Erfurth:

have requested the national guard.

Bill Erfurth:

She should have authorized the national guard sooner.

Bill Erfurth:

And essentially she took responsibility for that by what she

Bill Erfurth:

had mentioned in this documentary.

Bill Erfurth:

So it kind of seems to me ironic that she's going to use you as the fall

Bill Erfurth:

guy, the scapegoat, she's going to lie about the fact that what you had just

Bill Erfurth:

mentioned about your interactions with her and ultimately it was her deal.

Bill Erfurth:

And, you know, there's so much reporting about this.

Bill Erfurth:

That goes back to the fact that, you know, a week prior, Trump was having

Bill Erfurth:

a meeting in the Oval Office and Kash Patel was there, Kash Patel has come

Bill Erfurth:

out publicly on numerous forums saying, yes, 10,000 National Guard troops a week

Bill Erfurth:

before January six, uh, general Millie was in the oval office when that happened.

Bill Erfurth:

So, you know, to me, it's just political.

Bill Erfurth:

I think that it's, uh, tragically political in so many ways.

Bill Erfurth:

And, um, even the national guard, the national guard was standing by,

Bill Erfurth:

like you said, they, they were within eyesight, but why didn't they come?

Bill Erfurth:

It was probably because it was political and, uh, is that how you feel?

Steven Sund:

Absolutely.

Steven Sund:

They were, again, concerned for, uh, for the, for the optics.

Steven Sund:

So you go back and there's, again, there's so much that, that ended

Steven Sund:

up tying together in the book.

Steven Sund:

You talk about the January 3rd and January 4th call with Millie, uh,

Steven Sund:

Christopher, um, Christopher Miller, the Secretary of Defense, and, um,

Steven Sund:

trying to think who else was on some of the calls with, um, over, over at the

Steven Sund:

White House, they're having some calls.

Steven Sund:

It turns out now that Chris Miller, the Secretary of Defense, and General Milley,

Steven Sund:

who's the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, he really has an advisory role.

Steven Sund:

Um, but they had been so concerned, think about this, days in advance of

Steven Sund:

January 6th, they had been so concerned about violence occurring at the Capitol,

Steven Sund:

that they had talked about locking down Washington, D. C., and revoking the, the

Steven Sund:

permits issued up at Capitol grounds.

Steven Sund:

I'm the one that issues those permits.

Steven Sund:

They never told me a thing about their concerns.

Steven Sund:

Yet, January 4th, You have Miller, um, um, Miller, Christopher Miller put out a

Steven Sund:

memo restricting National Guard from even carrying any civil disobedience gear, um,

Steven Sund:

for the very violence they're expecting.

Steven Sund:

I, I, you know, what's interesting is, is it's a program called DSCA,

Steven Sund:

Defense Support for Civil Authorities.

Steven Sund:

It's where the military, either National Guard or active duty military, can

Steven Sund:

be brought in to help support civil authorities, whether it's national

Steven Sund:

disasters, like the wildfires, uh, COVID, or something like this.

Steven Sund:

There's ways to bring them in.

Steven Sund:

There's an Emergency Authorization Act.

Steven Sund:

There's a media authorization, but for me, it would have been

Steven Sund:

the Emergency Authorization Act.

Steven Sund:

I've actually been asked by the Department of Defense, uh, when I was

Steven Sund:

with D.C. To teach DSCA to foreign governments that were looking to kind

Steven Sund:

of develop the same kind of program.

Steven Sund:

Um, the Emergency Authorization Act says that when a civil authority, like me,

Steven Sund:

calls with a legitimate request, like what we had on January 6th, the commanding

Steven Sund:

general of whatever agency, whatever, um, uh, DoD agency I'm requesting it from has

Steven Sund:

authorization to immediately give life and death, uh, support life and death,

Steven Sund:

um, uh, support for the, uh, the request while seeking presidential approval.

Steven Sund:

Well, Crystal Miller put out that memo on January 4th that basically

Steven Sund:

restricted that that no longer was valid.

Steven Sund:

So even when I was sitting there making repeated calls to William Walker from 1:49

Steven Sund:

all the way through the evening multiple times saying, Hey, where are you guys?

Steven Sund:

Um, they weren't coming because Miller had put that memo out there.

Steven Sund:

Um, when, you know, I now think it was because he was concerned that Trump

Steven Sund:

might invoke the insurrection act might try and deploy the military to affect

Steven Sund:

the, uh, the outcome of the election.

Steven Sund:

Uh, so I think you had a number of people down at the white house that

Steven Sund:

was, you know, plotting, you know, politically, why they wanted to keep the

Steven Sund:

military away from the, uh, the Capitol.

Steven Sund:

Again, it was all about the optics.

Steven Sund:

And what the kicker is, think about this.

Steven Sund:

So, 5:44, they finally get National Guard up there.

:

44, we had all the protesters out of the building.

:

We were pushing protesters off Capitol Square, which is, you

:

know, the immediate, the immediate streets right around the Capitol,

:

and push them off Capitol grounds.

:

So, by the time they got sworn in and they got deployed out to their, their

:

perimeter assignments, it was over.

:

I really, at that point, I didn't even need them.

:

But you know what the military does when they finally get on post?

:

They, they line up with all their ride gears, their shields, their

:

helmets, their batons, and they take a picture and put it on Military Times

:

magazine of them standing in line with the Capitol in the background.

:

The very damn thing that General Piott had said he was so worried about.

:

It just proves that wasn't, wasn't what they're concerned about.

Dennis Collins:

You've been listening to part two of a three

Dennis Collins:

part conversation with former U. S. Capitol Police Chief Stephen Sund.

Dennis Collins:

Join us right here next week on the Heroes Behind the Badge podcast,

Dennis Collins:

the final part, part three.

Dennis Collins:

Chief Sund will give us his account of the aftermath of

Dennis Collins:

January 6th and the lasting impact.

Dennis Collins:

You don't want to miss that episode.

Dennis Collins:

To learn more about how you can support law enforcement, go to behindbadge.org.

Dennis Collins:

Join the hundreds of thousands of Americans showing their

Dennis Collins:

support for law enforcement.

Dennis Collins:

That's behind the badge.org.

Dennis Collins:

I'm Dennis Collins, and for my colleagues, Bill Erfurth and

Dennis Collins:

Craig Floyd, it's goodbye for now.

Dennis Collins:

We'll see you here next week for the next episode, the final conversation.

Dennis Collins:

Chief Steven Sund, right here on Heroes Behind the Badge.

Dennis Collins:

Real stories, about real cops, and we expose the fake news about police,

Dennis Collins:

and we'll give you the real truth.

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About the Podcast

Heroes Behind the Badge
We tell REAL stories about REAL cops.  And we expose the fake news about police and give you the REAL truth.
From the front lines to the final call, Heroes Behind the Badge brings you the untold stories of America's law enforcement community. Led by Craig Floyd, who spent 34 years working alongside police officers across the nation, alongside veteran facilitator Dennis Collins and law enforcement expert Bill Erfurth, this podcast cuts through misconceptions to reveal the true nature of modern policing.

Our dynamic trio brings unique perspectives to each episode: Craig shares deep insights from his decades of experience and relationships within law enforcement, Dennis guides conversations with meticulous research and natural flow, and Bill adds engaging commentary that makes complex law enforcement topics accessible to all listeners.

Each episode features in-depth conversations with law enforcement professionals, sharing their firsthand experiences, challenges, and triumphs. Drawing from extensive research and real-world experience, we explore the realities faced by the over 800,000 officers who serve and protect our communities every day.

From dramatic accounts of crisis response to quiet moments of everyday heroism, our show illuminates the human stories behind the badge. We dive deep into the statistics, policies, and practices that shape modern law enforcement, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of what it truly means to serve in law enforcement today.

Whether you're a law enforcement professional, a concerned citizen, or someone seeking to understand the complexities of modern policing, Heroes Behind the Badge provides the context, insights, and authentic perspectives you won't find anywhere else. Join us weekly as we honor those who dedicate their lives to keeping our communities safe, one story at a time.

Presented by Citizens Behind the Badge, a nonprofit organization dedicated to supporting and advocating for law enforcement professionals across the United States. Join over 126,000 Americans who have already signed our Declaration of Support for law enforcement at behindbadge.org.