Heroes Behind the Badge: Capitol Police Chief Steve Sund's Story - Part III

Dennis Collins: 00:00:09

Welcome back to heroes behind the badge.

Dennis Collins: 00:00:12

We tell real stories about real cops.

Dennis Collins: 00:00:15

We expose the fake news about police and we give you.

Dennis Collins: 00:00:20

The Real Truth.

Dennis Collins: 00:00:21

This podcast is brought to you by Citizens Behind the Badge, the leading voice of the American

Dennis Collins: 00:00:27

people in support of the men and women in law enforcement dedicated

Dennis Collins: 00:00:31

to ending the disastrous movement to defund and defame the police.

Dennis Collins: 00:00:36

I'm your host.

Dennis Collins: 00:00:37

Dennis Collins, a founding board member of Citizens Behind the Badge.

Dennis Collins: 00:00:41

I'm joined today by my colleagues Bill Erfurth and Craig Floyd.

Dennis Collins: 00:00:46

Bill is a retired Miami Dade police lieutenant with 26 years of decorated service.

Dennis Collins: 00:00:52

He is also a founding board member of Citizens Behind the Badge.

Dennis Collins: 00:00:56

Craig Floyd is the founder, the president, and CEO of Citizens Behind the Badge.

Dennis Collins: 00:01:02

Many of you probably know Craig as the founding CEO emeritus of the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund.

Dennis Collins: 00:01:09

Craig led the team that built the Law Enforcement Memorial and the National

Dennis Collins: 00:01:14

Law Enforcement Museum in Washington D.C. No one has worked longer or harder.

Dennis Collins: 00:01:20

to advocate and support law enforcement.

Dennis Collins: 00:01:24

So today our podcast concludes our three part conversation with former U. S. Capitol Police Chief Steven Sund.

Dennis Collins: 00:01:33

In the past two episodes, Chief Sund has documented the lead up to January 6, 2021 and the minute

Dennis Collins: 00:01:41

by minute harrowing account of what happened on the actual day.

Dennis Collins: 00:01:47

From the inside, from Chief Sund's point of view.

Dennis Collins: 00:01:50

If you miss those, be sure to check them out on Heroes Behind the Badge podcast.

Dennis Collins: 00:01:57

So Steve started his law enforcement career with the Metro Washington D.C. Police.

Dennis Collins: 00:02:01

He held numerous leadership positions over his 25 year career.

Dennis Collins: 00:02:05

He commanded Metro PD's SOD, Special Operations Division, handling major events, security operations.

Dennis Collins: 00:02:14

He helped coordinate security for many of the high profile events that happen in and around D.C. In 2017, Steve

Dennis Collins: 00:02:22

moved to the U. S. Capitol Police, and in 2019, he was promoted to Chief.

Dennis Collins: 00:02:28

He was the Chief, of course, during the January 6, 2021 riot at the Capitol.

Dennis Collins: 00:02:33

Steve is also a member of the Citizens Behind the Badge Law Enforcement Advisory Council.

Dennis Collins: 00:02:39

He wrote a book.

Dennis Collins: 00:02:40

Called Courage Under Fire, where he offers his detailed documentation

Dennis Collins: 00:02:46

of the events leading up to, during, and after the incident.

Dennis Collins: 00:02:51

In this final episode, Chief Sund offers us his account of the aftermath.

Dennis Collins: 00:02:57

of January 6th and the lasting impact.

Dennis Collins: 00:03:01

Here now is part 3 of our conversation with Chief Steven Sund.

Craig Floyd: 00:03:06

Steve, you lost your job.

Craig Floyd: 00:03:09

You were obviously, you and your family were deeply affected

Craig Floyd: 00:03:12

and continue to be affected by what happened on January 6th.

Craig Floyd: 00:03:16

But there were also, uh, uh, injures, injuries to your officers, uh, several officers died as a result of January

Craig Floyd: 00:03:24

6th, um, and all of your officers who were there that day, uh, suffered, uh, not only physical, uh, injury,

Craig Floyd: 00:03:32

but also, uh, mental health injuries, uh, tell us about, uh, the effects

Craig Floyd: 00:03:37

on your officers and some of the lives that were lost as a result.

Steven Sund: 00:03:41

So when you, when you look at it and any law enforcement agency, uh, or any law enforcement, uh, officer

Steven Sund: 00:03:47

that goes through a, a significant critical incident, uh, and I would say what these officers went through

Steven Sund: 00:03:52

was, was pretty significant, uh, will carry that with them for a long time.

Steven Sund: 00:03:55

I, like I said, I still talk to officers, you know, there

Steven Sund: 00:03:58

are still a number of them out there dealing with it.

Steven Sund: 00:04:00

Um, so getting the, the proper counseling, uh, helping them through it, um.

Steven Sund: 00:04:05

I think has been, uh, is important, especially following a critical incident.

Steven Sund: 00:04:10

You know, when you think about the, the, the lives lost, uh, for the, from the officer standpoint.

Steven Sund: 00:04:14

So we had, uh, one, one officer that I would say is a direct correlation, uh, to it.

Steven Sund: 00:04:19

You know, what I'll say is, so yeah, Brian Sicknick, Brian Sicknick that

Steven Sund: 00:04:22

evening, uh, and people, people think he, he, he, he died the next day.

Steven Sund: 00:04:26

He did die the next day, but he collapsed that day, collapsed

Steven Sund: 00:04:28

that evening, uh, after we'd gotten control of the Capitol.

Steven Sund: 00:04:32

Uh, 8 p. m. The Senate went into, uh, session.

Steven Sund: 00:04:34

9 p. m.

Steven Sund: 00:04:35

The, uh, House goes into session.

Steven Sund: 00:04:36

Shortly after the House goes into session, Brian Sicknick's walking with a group of, uh, officers, including

Steven Sund: 00:04:42

a Virginia State Police officer by the name of Chris, uh, Serlac.

Steven Sund: 00:04:45

Uh, he happens to be a tactical medic.

Steven Sund: 00:04:48

Uh, they're walking to get a bite to eat, um, and he drops to the ground.

Steven Sund: 00:04:51

Um, uh, Trooper Serlac is immediately rendering first aid.

Steven Sund: 00:04:56

They can't get, uh, he's not able to be, he doesn't recover at all.

Steven Sund: 00:05:00

He's transported, uh, and ends up dying the very, the very next day.

Steven Sund: 00:05:03

Um, a lot of people have pointed the fact, well, medical examiner said it was natural causes.

Steven Sund: 00:05:08

He died of a stroke, natural causes.

Steven Sund: 00:05:10

Um, the medical examiner did make a statement in a press conference where he said the, um,

Steven Sund: 00:05:15

Incident, the actions of that day contributed to, uh, to his illness.

Steven Sund: 00:05:21

Anybody that doesn't think that's a, uh, a correlation, um, you know, anyway, um, so I, I think that right there

Steven Sund: 00:05:27

is your, you know, that's immediately the direct, you know, one person that, um, died as a result, uh, you had a

Steven Sund: 00:05:33

suicide two days later, I'm sorry, on the 9th, uh, Howard Levengood, who, uh, actually was a, was a friend of mine.

Steven Sund: 00:05:39

He was a Capitol police officer.

Steven Sund: 00:05:41

Uh, we worked at the same, worked at the same gym, uh, in, uh, in Virginia.

Steven Sund: 00:05:45

And, um, yeah.

Steven Sund: 00:05:46

We'd share stories.

Steven Sund: 00:05:47

He'd like to work on cars and race cars.

Steven Sund: 00:05:49

I love to, uh, work on cars and growing up.

Steven Sund: 00:05:52

Uh, I raced once a quarter mile.

Steven Sund: 00:05:56

He raced rally, but we'd share some stories and it was tragic to hear his loss.

Steven Sund: 00:06:01

Um, anytime, you know, an officer deals with, um, You know, whatever they're, you know, whatever

Steven Sund: 00:06:08

they're, they're having to deal with and, uh, takes our own life.

Steven Sund: 00:06:10

That's, that is really, really tough and is a tragic situation.

Steven Sund: 00:06:14

Uh, I think it was January 16th, you had Jeff Smith with the D.C. Police,

Steven Sund: 00:06:18

uh, who also responded, uh, to January 6th that, um, ended up taking his life.

Steven Sund: 00:06:22

And ultimately, a couple of months later, you had two other, uh, D.C. Police officers that took their life.

Steven Sund: 00:06:26

So, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's tragic.

Steven Sund: 00:06:29

Um, I know when And I talk about it in the book in, in, in detail, um, because when my watch commander came

Steven Sund: 00:06:38

in and told me, uh, about Howard Leamingood's, um, death, I got really, really concerned, uh, because I know

Steven Sund: 00:06:45

my officers, a lot of them were going through a lot of stuff after that,

Steven Sund: 00:06:48

and the last thing I wanted to see was anybody else, um, do any self harm.

Steven Sund: 00:06:52

Uh, so I was very, very worried about that and knew this had to be dealt with in a very effective, uh, and

Steven Sund: 00:06:56

immediate manner, uh, and that in itself is a whole, is a whole other story.

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:01

You know, it really, you and I cop to cop, you know, what really pisses me off about that whole

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:06

situation is that their deaths have been so politicized now for political gain.

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:14

You know, just the other day on January 6th, Merrick Garland made a statement and in his statement on Twitter says

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:23

that five officers were killed in the line of duty on January 6th.

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:28

And there was a Congresswoman that came out and said the same thing.

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:32

And that's just not factually true.

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:35

I mean, it's horrendous what happened.

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:38

It's horrendous that the officers are.

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:41

No longer alive.

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:43

I mean, we've, you, you, you've lost friends in the line of duty.

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:47

I've lost friends in the line of duty.

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:49

It's, it's tragic.

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:51

Uh, but I think it's even more tragic that certain political people

Bill Erfurth: 00:07:56

for political gain are going to use the deaths of those officers.

Bill Erfurth: 00:08:02

To their benefit,

Steven Sund: 00:08:04

I agree.

Steven Sund: 00:08:04

That's I mean, that's the lowest of low when they, when they, when they started doing that.

Steven Sund: 00:08:08

Um, and, and you saw that repeatedly a matter of fact, that's partially the, uh, the reason for the, the

Steven Sund: 00:08:15

title of the book courage under fire is, you know, the, uh, the backlash and some of my officers that came,

Steven Sund: 00:08:21

especially from members of Congress, um, and, you know, uh, Craig, you had talked about some of the people that

Steven Sund: 00:08:27

were some of the biggest supporters of, you know, defund the police.

Steven Sund: 00:08:30

You know, I talked about it in the book.

Steven Sund: 00:08:32

One of those.

Steven Sund: 00:08:32

Yeah.

Steven Sund: 00:08:32

You know, big, um, uh, big supporters, uh, was, was screaming at me the evening of January 6,

Steven Sund: 00:08:42

wondering why I hadn't ordered my officers to open fire on the crowd.

Steven Sund: 00:08:46

Think about that.

Steven Sund: 00:08:47

Think about if any chief in the United States of America came out and give a blanket order for your

Steven Sund: 00:08:52

officers to open fire on a group of protesters, uh, rioting protesters, however you want to describe it.

Steven Sund: 00:08:59

Um, that would have been a terribly, that would have been a dark day for America.

Bill Erfurth: 00:09:04

So, Chief, are you, uh, Chief, are you referring to, uh, crazy Maxine Waters there?

Steven Sund: 00:09:09

No, that would have been, uh, uh, Tim Ryan.

Steven Sund: 00:09:12

Tim Ryan.

Steven Sund: 00:09:13

Um, and I was explaining to him, I said, that's not that, you know,

Steven Sund: 00:09:15

we, we rely on our training, our policies, Supreme Court decisions.

Steven Sund: 00:09:20

That's not how we work.

Steven Sund: 00:09:21

And he told me I should have changed the policy in the middle of the fight.

Dennis Collins: 00:09:23

Good.

Bill Erfurth: 00:09:24

You know, and the reason I brought up, the reason

Bill Erfurth: 00:09:26

I brought up Maxine Waters is because you have, uh, a couple of.

Bill Erfurth: 00:09:32

Excerpts in your book about that whole situation, how she called

Bill Erfurth: 00:09:36

you in advance to January 6 to basically tell you how to do your job.

Bill Erfurth: 00:09:42

Then in the middle of the whole situation, she's calling you again, trying to tell you how to do your job.

Bill Erfurth: 00:09:48

Nothing to me is more unbelievable than a politician trying to tell

Bill Erfurth: 00:09:52

somebody how to do their job that's never walked in your shoes.

Bill Erfurth: 00:09:56

But you know, the irony of that whole thing, and I'll let you expound on it a little bit.

Bill Erfurth: 00:09:59

But the irony about Maxine Waters is we You know, if we go down memory lane with her, you know,

Bill Erfurth: 00:10:05

back in, uh, June of 2018, she's out encouraging supporters of the Trump

Bill Erfurth: 00:10:14

administration to go out and harass and intimidate and get in their face.

Bill Erfurth: 00:10:21

Anyone that's part of the Trump administration.

Bill Erfurth: 00:10:24

Then in April of 2021, with the incidents that occurred in Minneapolis,

Bill Erfurth: 00:10:32

Minnesota, she's quoted as saying, we got to stay on the street.

Bill Erfurth: 00:10:36

We got to get more active.

Bill Erfurth: 00:10:38

We got to get more confrontational.

Bill Erfurth: 00:10:40

We got to make sure they know we mean business.

Bill Erfurth: 00:10:44

And then she goes on to encourage people to violate the curfew.

Bill Erfurth: 00:10:49

So here's a Congresswoman.

Bill Erfurth: 00:10:52

With that kind of background, and then she calls you to lecture you about how you should do your job.

Bill Erfurth: 00:11:00

You want to talk about that a bit?

Steven Sund: 00:11:02

Yeah, I'm in the, I'm in the command center.

Steven Sund: 00:11:04

I'm trying to remember the exact time, um, that she called probably two, three o'clock is, is probably

Steven Sund: 00:11:11

right in the height of when I'm trying to get into resources, trying to get people, uh, deployed out there.

Steven Sund: 00:11:16

And was screaming at me about what are you going to do?

Steven Sund: 00:11:19

What are you going to do to get this under control?

Steven Sund: 00:11:20

What are you going to do?

Steven Sund: 00:11:21

You know, it's a, you know, um, and, um, went and I said, ma'am, trying to bring in whatever resources I

Steven Sund: 00:11:27

can, trying to get, you know, we say reestablish perimeter, you know, please, I need to get back to my job.

Steven Sund: 00:11:31

And she was screaming at me.

Steven Sund: 00:11:32

She wouldn't stop.

Steven Sund: 00:11:33

And finally, I just looked at the phone and said, This conversation is going nowhere.

Steven Sund: 00:11:36

Just hit the end call button.

Steven Sund: 00:11:38

And I remember turning over and, um, because my general counsel was

Steven Sund: 00:11:41

sitting, I had, uh, chief Pittman and chief Gallagher sitting in my left.

Steven Sund: 00:11:44

And then my general counsel, I remember looking over my general counsel go, Hey, you may just want to make a note.

Steven Sund: 00:11:49

I just hung up on, uh, Nancy water, Maxine waters.

Steven Sund: 00:11:52

I'm sure I'm gonna hear about it.

Steven Sund: 00:11:54

Um, you know, it's one of those things to look back on.

Steven Sund: 00:11:56

I would have done it again today.

Steven Sund: 00:11:58

I didn't have time to deal with that.

Steven Sund: 00:12:00

Uh, and it was again, it was just taking critical time away from me getting resources from officers.

Craig Floyd: 00:12:05

We're getting ready to wrap things up.

Craig Floyd: 00:12:08

We could go on for hours.

Craig Floyd: 00:12:10

That book was, as I said, riveting, packed full of stories and information

Craig Floyd: 00:12:14

that the public did not have about nine or excuse me, about January six.

Craig Floyd: 00:12:21

But let me just ask you this maybe as a closing thought, um, this obviously, you got the report from Congress in

Craig Floyd: 00:12:29

December, a nice Christmas present, if you will, uh, exonerating you from any of the blame and really praising you for

Craig Floyd: 00:12:36

having done a good job and shouldered so much of the burden of January 6.

Craig Floyd: 00:12:40

Unfairly.

Craig Floyd: 00:12:41

Um, but clearly this has had a deep impact, not only on January six and

Craig Floyd: 00:12:48

soon after, but a lasting impact really on you and your family.

Craig Floyd: 00:12:52

Talk to me a little bit about how you've had to be able to deal with all that.

Steven Sund: 00:12:57

Um, it it was again.

Steven Sund: 00:13:00

Yeah, it's still it still is is is is tough.

Steven Sund: 00:13:04

I still I love being a police officer.

Steven Sund: 00:13:06

I loved working with the men and women up there.

Steven Sund: 00:13:09

Like I said, I still talk to capital police DC police on a daily basis.

Steven Sund: 00:13:15

Um, and I really did did miss it.

Steven Sund: 00:13:17

I think.

Steven Sund: 00:13:18

And my kids, they've, that's all they've known them, you know, their entire lives is, hey, dad, dad was a cop.

Steven Sund: 00:13:23

There's always something going on.

Steven Sund: 00:13:25

You know, you took the good with the bad, a few missed birthdays, things like that.

Steven Sund: 00:13:28

But they really liked it.

Steven Sund: 00:13:29

The big takeaway now is, you know, I had a couple of kids that were really looking forward to maybe

Steven Sund: 00:13:36

following my dad and my footsteps and their dad's footsteps.

Steven Sund: 00:13:39

Specifically, I had, uh, my middle daughter was always talking about, dad, I want to be a doc with a Glock.

Steven Sund: 00:13:45

Wanted to go in and get, um, Her medical degree, but also work with

Steven Sund: 00:13:51

tactical units and kind of one of those tactical response capabilities.

Steven Sund: 00:13:55

Um, not now, not now.

Steven Sund: 00:13:57

And they see what goes on with law enforcement and they see how things are politicized when they see how

Steven Sund: 00:14:02

people are scrutinized again, like you said, for doing their jail be, um.

Steven Sund: 00:14:07

Far the same.

Steven Sund: 00:14:08

Nope.

Steven Sund: 00:14:08

Don't want any part of it.

Steven Sund: 00:14:10

It was, uh, it was tough.

Steven Sund: 00:14:12

My son was doing online classes when the, uh, right at the capital

Steven Sund: 00:14:16

began and isn't his teacher was the one that told him about it.

Steven Sund: 00:14:20

Uh, and and just to hear the stories of what they went through, um, that day.

Steven Sund: 00:14:25

And then when I finally came home late.

Steven Sund: 00:14:27

Late Thursday night.

Steven Sund: 00:14:29

I came home to a security detail from Fairfax County and Capitol Police on the house And had to had to had

Steven Sund: 00:14:35

to deal with that but needless to say Good now that the December 17th report helps out it helps out a lot

Steven Sund: 00:14:42

But you know, there are still times I miss I miss the the camaraderie.

Steven Sund: 00:14:45

I miss the mission.

Steven Sund: 00:14:46

I don't miss the minutia

Craig Floyd: 00:14:48

We salute you, sir. And again, I just want to conclude by telling people you've heard some

Craig Floyd: 00:14:53

of the highlights from this book, Courage Under Fire, but there's so

Craig Floyd: 00:14:58

much more that we couldn't get into today because of time limitations.

Craig Floyd: 00:15:02

But go out and get this book, Courage Under Fire, if you really want to know the truth about

Craig Floyd: 00:15:06

January 6th, the prep for it, the day of, and then the aftermath.

Craig Floyd: 00:15:12

Uh, Steve can't thank you enough for joining us today and, uh, look forward to continuing to work with

Craig Floyd: 00:15:17

you, my friend, you are a hero behind the badge and we're honored that you were with us here today.

Steven Sund: 00:15:24

Thank you very much for the opportunity.

Steven Sund: 00:15:25

And I was just going to say thank you for all you do, uh, supporting the men and women of law enforcement.

Steven Sund: 00:15:31

Bill, thank you for your, uh, your support and your working with Craig and Dennis.

Steven Sund: 00:15:34

Um, honored, honored to be here and thank you very much for your time today.

Bill Erfurth: 00:15:38

Thank you, Steve.

Bill Erfurth: 00:15:39

We salute you.

Bill Erfurth: 00:15:40

Terrific.

Bill Erfurth: 00:15:40

Yes.

Bill Erfurth: 00:15:41

Thank you.

Bill Erfurth: 00:15:41

Terrific.

Dennis Collins: 00:15:42

You've been listening to the third and final

Dennis Collins: 00:15:45

conversation with former U. S. Capitol Police Chief Steven Sund.

Dennis Collins: 00:15:50

If by chance you missed the first two, you can still find them at Heroes Behind the Badge podcast.

Dennis Collins: 00:15:58

Uh, Chief Sund also wrote a book.

Dennis Collins: 00:16:00

Courage Under Fire, he goes into great detail and documents his account

Dennis Collins: 00:16:07

of the events surrounding January 6th at the United States Capitol.

Dennis Collins: 00:16:12

We thank you for joining us for this important conversation.

Dennis Collins: 00:16:15

We aim to bring you many, many more newsmaker, more

Dennis Collins: 00:16:19

interesting conversations on Heroes Behind the Badge.

Dennis Collins: 00:16:24

To learn more about how you can support law enforcement, go to BehindBadge.org.

Dennis Collins: 00:16:30

Join hundreds of thousands of Americans already showing their support for law enforcement.

Dennis Collins: 00:16:37

That's BehindBadge.org.

Dennis Collins: 00:16:41

I'm Dennis Collins, and for my colleagues, Bill Erfurth.

Dennis Collins: 00:16:45

And Craig Floyd, goodbye for now.

Dennis Collins: 00:16:48

We'll see you for the next episode of Heroes Behind the Badge.

Dennis Collins: 00:16:52

Real stories about real cops, and we expose the fake news about the police, and we give you the real truth.